Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#181

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

ngcc_hk wrote: post #180

Being one of the protestor out of 2m and feet still hurt after 8 hour walking and stopping among children but mostly young man, let me try to supplement that article why especially those not mentioned in the article. This related to two most common slogans shouted by the 2m. (The 3rd most common one is “Hong Kong Add Oil” not an issue per sec. ) (a) Withdrawn not suspension In 2003 the first million protest after han…

> I do not know why prof chan used the phrase indefinitely. That is not in chinese. In fact the message that this is suspicion only temporary is clear.

“Indefinitely” in this context does not mean “infinitely”, it means “without a predefined end time” if it is merely suspected that the suspension will be lifted at so uncertain future time, “indefinitely” appears correct.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#182

Post by elyobo » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 9:31 AM UTC

kumosawa wrote: post #39

I’m from china mainland, and I stand for these protesters. At least, I don’t want them lose the right of fighting for their rights. And btw, even such huge protest happening, there is no report, no discussion in China, even message left on SNS also get censored or vanished. Terrifying. Edit: apologize for uncertain words, it needs add a time limitation. The first protest was happening at 9th June and all Chinese medi…

I did wonder what the coverage on the mainland was like. No coverage seemed like the most likely outcome.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#183

Post by Fnoord » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 9:33 AM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #165

Danieru wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, 28 years ago China was not even a dictatorship! It is foolish to think China in another 28 years is going to be nicer. Despot regimes get worse before they collapse. Sadly even the collapse is not a reprieve.

Was China better 30 years ago? Didn't we just see the 30 year anniversary of tiananmen square..

Problem here is the definition of 'better'. We'd need to find a common ground of agreement on that before deciding if it is better now or 30 years ago. Perhaps the answer isn't even a simple yes/no.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#184

Post by powerapple » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

They don't. That's why youngsters are the driving force for changes, they destroy. It is not a bad thing. The real driving force to make change is actually power. When these protests are aligned with some power, things go change. I am certain things won't happen in countries such as US or China. For smaller and weaker countries, maybe.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#185

Post by mnming » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:21 AM UTC

Almost all press focus on the fact that there are two millions people on the street and the possibility of power abuse caused by this bill. None of them pay any attention to pros & cons of this bill from a rational perspective. People barely remembers that the origin of this bill is to extradite one brutal killer of a Taiwan girl. No one is seeking middle ground or constructive result.

People see, people fear, people destroy, without any regard to pragmatism and rationality. Great.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#186

Post by dosshell » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:25 AM UTC

jyew wrote: post #157

I do not understand the sentiment on HK March. No one bat an eye when a China citizen arrested on Canada soil to be extradite to US. When China trying to pass a extradition bill on a China territory, the world goes batshit. The reason that most journalist peddling is you may be trial unfairly in mainland China. You always get a fair trial. China law is fair in China. Shariah law is fair in the Islamic country. Plead…

I agree that one should respect other countries law, from their point of view. But when you are not allowed (read killed) to protest against the ones who decides the law, that is a big problem whatever the laws are.

Democracy is not only about majority votes, it is about free speech, the ability to review and criticize the government. It is about that the people do not get censored information but where the people are the bosses of the government, not the other way around.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#187

Post by toyg » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:27 AM UTC

pvg wrote: post #166

toyg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I don’t think so” is not an argument. Texas is a well-defined territory with a well-defined set of cultural characteristics. Its population has as much of a right to self-determination as Catalunya, Scotland, Croatia, Slovakia or Kosovo, should a consensus emerge in the region. This is hardly controversial.

It's hardly controversial that whatever Wilson's ideas were, they did not include Texas becoming an independent country. I also don't think it's controversial that all the intricate thinking, principles and international proclamations on self-determination don't actually boil down to 'any group or region can easily turn themselves into a sovereign country, if they really want to and work hard at it'.

Obviously there are parameters, but Wilson's principles have been one of the pillars of modern international relations. Discounting them would mean throwing us back to "might makes right", which is a recipe for permanent war.

If you want to discuss why Texas does not meet parameters for independent statehood in your opinion, I'm happy to listen; but you cannot unilaterally say an unexplained "no" without looking very clearly tyrannical.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#188

Post by ulfw » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:27 AM UTC

mnming wrote: post #185

Almost all press focus on the fact that there are two millions people on the street and the possibility of power abuse caused by this bill. None of them pay any attention to pros & cons of this bill from a rational perspective. People barely remembers that the origin of this bill is to extradite one brutal killer of a Taiwan girl. No one is seeking middle ground or constructive result. People see, people fear, people…

Taiwan doesn‘t want that extradition law either.

https://qz.com/1642413/why-taiwan-is-so-outspoken-on-hong-ko...

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#189

Post by nialv7 » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:27 AM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

Even if it doesn't change anything, they at least stood up and fought.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#190

Post by yorwba » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #177

kumosawa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China mainland, there is a censor tech named Great Firewall.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall?wprov=sfti1 ) It just cut off the connection between China and the World Internet by blocking famous website like Twitter, Facebook etc. Only the people have eagerness of finding truth will use anti-blocking tech like VPN to find information by themselves. Of course, it’s inconvenience and sometimes not worki…

This reminds me of a discussion that I've seen somewhere, with a Russian journalist who ran to the US after becoming a target for participating in the 2011–2013 Russian protests. - What's the public opinion of Russian people on Putin? - There's no such thing as public opinion in Russia. - What do you mean, I can go out, sample 1000 people and ask them a question. That's what I mean by public opinion. - You can do tha…

> You can do that, but the result is useless. There are studies on the topic - people will just say whatever was on last week's [state controlled] news.

I doubt the correlation is perfect, which makes such polls non-useless. For example, comparing questions on which the correlation is more or less strong would allow identifying the degree of trust in the state media depending on the topic they're reporting on.