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I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

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Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#481
post #418
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is however that a good crop of candidates doesn't know how to sort an array, am not sure why am finding myself explaining it for the 2nd time. So all I can say is they are below high school student in your neck of the woods, even if they have Masters in relevant discipline. And if you can't sort an array with all help of Wikipedia and Stackoverflow, you would not be able to walk a graph, let alone do anything…

I was saying all along that your exercise: a) is too easy b) doesn't have enough meat to differentiate between junior / regular / senior c) covers very little if anything at all from what a SWE does on their day to day. OTOH I guess/hope you had more things, not just this.

It was a junior position.

This was the only coding test but we also either talked through opensource code candidates brought in or discussed some parts of one our real project here.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#482
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is however that a good crop of candidates doesn't know how to sort an array, am not sure why am finding myself explaining it for the 2nd time. So all I can say is they are below high school student in your neck of the woods, even if they have Masters in relevant discipline. And if you can't sort an array with all help of Wikipedia and Stackoverflow, you would not be able to walk a graph, let alone do anything…

Let’s say someone didn’t know any sort algorithms since he has been using one provided by the language. Would you have been willing to explain on a high level how the algorithm works? I wouldn’t be opposed to any algorithmic type question if you explain the requirements on a high level and let them do it within an IDE. But, you are hiring for a software developer, who should be able to translate business problems tha…

I would be willing to explain sorting to someone without formal CS training, but not to one with Masters degree in the discipline. They had 5 years to figure it out.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#483
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing this during a job interview is not going to give you the results you expect. For every person like you who wants to hear "I don't know" there are 10 people who will pass on you for not knowing something. People's expectations are set by the worst interviewers they experience, not the best (and honestly, trying to trap people isn't the "best" anyway).

I once told an interview I didn't know something and they told me that I should never say I don't know something and just try to make something up. I don't really agree with him and just kept doing it though and things seems to be fine.. If anything I would say that interview was successful for both parties because we probably wouldn't get along and that is totally fine.

I was told something similar by my high school history teacher Mr. Kolhaise, but I think it was phrased in a more helpful manner and it's always stuck with me.

He said "Don't just tell me what you don't know, tell me what you do know" or in other words, don't just say "I don't know" but say something like "I don't know, but based on what I do know this is what I think the answer would be and this is how I would figure it out".

It really helps that everyone forgets what people say before the "but" and you can help get across the idea that while you may not know everything you know how to figure things out.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but this is such BS. There are what, a dozen other engineering industries out there? EE, Civil, Mechanical, Aeronautical etc. and in not a single one of them do they do this monkey dance. It would be absurd to ask a Aeronautical Engineer to do something like derive the Navier-Stokes Equation on a whiteboard and its equally absurd to play the same game with SWE's, you all have just been bamboozled and strong…

> It would be absurd to ask a Aeronautical Engineer to do something like derive the Navier-Stokes Equation on a whiteboard A thorough interview in physical engineering disciplines will often expect you to demonstrate/validate something about your technical skill in-person, unless you are being interviewed because people already have validated knowledge about your capabilities (e.g., hiring a known individual from a c…

>A thorough interview in physical engineering disciplines will often expect you to demonstrate/validate something about your technical skill in-person, unless you are being interviewed because people already have validated knowledge about your capabilities (e.g., hiring a known individual from a competitor that is well-respected among peers).

This to me is one of the worst things about the Tech industry. You could be a senior engineer at Google and to move to a new company you will have to do the same algorithm interviews that New Grads are doing. It's a bad look for the industry. Like oh I see on your resume that you have worked for Facebook, Google and Amazon, well we better put you though an algorithm interview because you could have just been a false positive at all 3 companies. It massively devalues SWEs in an industry that we already know colludes to depress wages.

>This probably has more to do with Aeronautics actually practicing engineering as compared to today's software development practices. Also software development as a field is far less mature than traditional engineering disciplines. That's not meant to be pejorative - it's just where humanity is.

Not disagreeing but my point was that they have a far better performance record despite not doing the bizarre interviews that the Tech industry favors.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#485
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There just isn't a supply of good developers for companies that aren't FAANGs or unicorns. ...at the salary you are offering. I see many people hiring adjusting for cost of living but not adjusting for the place being less desirable to live. Also, given the reputation of FAANG and similar, working for them is viewed as something of a future investment. That is a benefit your company likely cannot offer. So even if e…

No, that's why I said "before anyone says we're not paying enough...". There are team members making $2xxK/year here, and we're not in a coastal city. The problem we have is that almost every person that comes in here bombs out in the first five minutes of the interview.

[deleted]

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you need a doctor or lawyer or pilot, because they are certified, you at least know that they all have at least a bare minimum amount of competence. You may not know if they are elite ninja skilled, but you know they know the basics. Literally anyone can say they know how to program, and there is nothing on the resume that can confirm or deny this. I’ve interviewed Senior Software Engineers with years of experie…

I'm sorry but this is such BS. There are what, a dozen other engineering industries out there? EE, Civil, Mechanical, Aeronautical etc. and in not a single one of them do they do this monkey dance. It would be absurd to ask a Aeronautical Engineer to do something like derive the Navier-Stokes Equation on a whiteboard and its equally absurd to play the same game with SWE's, you all have just been bamboozled and strong…

> EE, Civil, Mechanical, Aeronautical etc. and in not a single one of them do they do this monkey dance.

EEs definitely go through basic, advanced, and domain-specific circuit design questions in their interviews. And compared to LEETCODE they are much more difficult to prepare for too.

There is a reason why SWE is a fallback option for many other engineering disciplines -- resources like leetcode and low barrier of entry to learning make it much more accessible.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#487
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leetcode is not even that hard, tons of material and key to the answer is on the internet. Doesn't that support the argument a bit? Its "not that hard" -- so even someone who _doesn't_ have the requisite experience could learn it? So its just another hoop to jump through, _before_ they validate whether you are a good fit for the job in the first place. That's what people are complaining about.

Yes, it is another hop to jump through. >so even someone who _doesn't_ have the requisite experience could learn it? I consider it a plus. Every company use different technology and different way to do things. Not to mention it keep changing all the time. With a standardize test, even though I don't have the experience with the technology they use, i can still have have a shot.

I get where you are coming from and agree with the sentiment, but disagree on the specifics.

> Every company use different technology and different way to do things

To a small extent, but mostly untrue. If you are an expert UI programmer, you should be able to move between disparate UI technologies relatively easily.

> With a standardize test

People aren't upset with the standardized test part. They are upset it (frequently) tests things that are not relevant. Hard things at that. There are an extensive number of practical, language / framework agnostic questions you can ask about UI or back-end programming that will easily tease out quality candidates. Instead they ask you merge sort. Hence people complain.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or I'm just politely asking for confirmation of what I'm interviewing for, as I'm participating in said interview. You sound like that proverbial manager who refused to hire someone because at the lunch interview the candidate put salt on his fries before trying them, and the hiring manager extrapolated that to mean he doesn't properly analyze situations before acting. As for "role" and "expert", you seem to think th…

It's not honest. You're not asking the question to better understand the situation, you're asking the question to make a rhetorical point. You're not expressing your opinion, you're hiding your opinion, and setting up a "trap" for the employer to possibly fall into if they answer "incorrectly". You think you know better. Asking questions doesn't create a snake pit, not being straightforward with your opinions does. A…

It is honest, it's just not 100% blunt. I'm saying a professional version of "Now that I've proven my resume isn't a complete lie, you know these problems are irrelevant and non-representative, right?" and gauging their reaction with a plausible out that I was just confirming basic information if I need it. I can even throw in that anecdote about my previous job where I was hired for one thing and pushed into another. Hell if there's another engineer in the room we might even bond over it. If I was 100% blunt I'd be guilty of the very snark you say is impossible not to have and likely get less information about them thanks to pushing too hard. I have to pass their "is he completely full of shit?" test, why shouldn't they have to pass mine? Ideally we both pass our respective tests and both sides become much less guarded as the interview goes on.

As for "knowing better", in the past I occasionally have known better than some of my bosses, as born out in money lost (once to the tune of millions of dollars) doing it their way until they (miraculously and of their own accord, of course) came around to doing it the way some of my co-workers and I had been promoting. Was a minority of cases, but often enough that I don't assume competence or honesty from strange managers without at least some indirect verification.

As for not asking any questions in interviews, I didn't mean to insinuate you meant that exactly. But from your statements it appears you would have issues with non-technical non-job-specific questions, because I'm an engineer and such questions would be "taking a moral position beyond your role on a topic you're not an expert in.". Which to me sounds like "Engineers shouldn't judge businesses beyond their immediate role because they don't have business degrees". To which I'd say I don't need to be an "expert" to judge interviewing techniques any more than I need to be a licensed auto-mechanic to change my oil and brake pads. Likewise I've learned the hard way to examine a business's financial incentives/disincentives, business model and direct competition more closely than the job descriptions, because those factors will determine the nature of the job I'm applying for a lot more than any given mission statement or brief description in an interview. So I may ask questions about those topics as well, despite being "beyond my role".

Since you value direct honesty about intentions: this conversation is beneficial to me in forcing me to explain/defend these perspectives in greater detail than I usually have the opportunity/need to. So for whatever it's worth I thank you for that. It's clear we both come from very different experiences in approaching this scenario, and I'm sure your experience bears out your arguments just as mine does my arguments. I doubt we'll come to an agreement here, but part of me wonders how I'd do in an interview with you if I wasn't aware it was you and you weren't aware it was me, from this thread. Probably never going to find out, but would be interesting.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#489
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is another hop to jump through. >so even someone who _doesn't_ have the requisite experience could learn it? I consider it a plus. Every company use different technology and different way to do things. Not to mention it keep changing all the time. With a standardize test, even though I don't have the experience with the technology they use, i can still have have a shot.

I get where you are coming from and agree with the sentiment, but disagree on the specifics. > Every company use different technology and different way to do things To a small extent, but mostly untrue. If you are an expert UI programmer, you should be able to move between disparate UI technologies relatively easily. > With a standardize test People aren't upset with the standardized test part. They are upset it (fre…

>hey are upset it (frequently) tests things that are not relevant.

To some extent but the topic is still relevant, leetcode topics are algorithm, data structure, system design, etc.

Again whatever interview scheme you devise nothing is perfect. To me at least the pros outweigh the cons.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#490
post #205

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

I am kind of new to all coding. Can you explain what is wrong with that code?
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