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Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#141

Post by antidesitter »

jake_the_third wrote: post #92
brobinson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We allow similar censorship in the US (of things like extremist propaganda or hate speech) with a similar justification. The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand. The US government can't do anything about you hosting a website and posting extremist propaganda/hate speech on it. (the exception being speech which is _likely_ to cause _imminent lawless…

> The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand. Is this really a meaningful difference if the end result is the same?

> the end result is the same

Not even close. In China, you cannot even talk about politically-sensitive topics like the Tiananmen Square massacre. I don’t think you appreciate the massive chilling effect of its policies, and the strength of the Party’s grip on the social consciousness. It’s a different ball game.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#142

Post by petre »

sanxiyn wrote: post #43
dmix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read most the legislature is pro-Beijing, which is how the bill passed in the first place. I doubt these same people are going to impeach her for it.

I live in South Korea. In 2016, a lot of members in Park's party voted to impeach the president Park. (In fact, impeachment couldn't have passed without such.) It's pretty simple really. Anyone from competitive seat will do pretty much anything if they are 100% sure they won't be re-elected otherwise.

ROK doesn't quite compare, being a democracy. In fact I was quite surprised to see president Park impeached and saw it as a sign of a functional demicracy. Failing to impeach her would have probably ended in riots.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#143

Post by educationdata »

kumosawa wrote: post #69
lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

In China mainland, there is a censor tech named Great Firewall.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall?wprov=sfti1 ) It just cut off the connection between China and the World Internet by blocking famous website like Twitter, Facebook etc. Only the people have eagerness of finding truth will use anti-blocking tech like VPN to find information by themselves. Of course, it’s inconvenience and sometimes not worki…

> Being lack of information, most citizens support gov’s standpoint.

NO, because of the censorship, we do not know how many people actually support gov’s standpoint. Your statement is pure speculation and does not have any factual basis.

The Chinese government will not allow any professional organization to conduct and publish a survey like: "Do you support the censorship?", or "Do you support protest in HK?", or "Do you support shooting students in the Tianman Square", or "Do you support Xi to be the Chairman forever?"

Even the Chinese government itself does not know how many people support it and they fear the number is in fact not small, that is exactly why they need censorship in the first place.

One of the most commonly used words in their propaganda is "一小撮" [1, 2]. They always claim the people against them is only a few bad people. I never bought this even when I was in middle school. The reason is so obvious: if it is truly only a few people against you, why don't you just allow people to vote? Why don't you just allow people to speak up? The only reason you are so afraid is that you know maybe it is not just a few, and you know there is a good reason for people to stand against you.

1. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E5%B0%8F%E6%92%AE

2. https://www.linguee.com/chinese-english/translation/%E4%B8%8...

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#144

Post by zachguo »

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50
kumosawa wrote: post #39

I’m from china mainland, and I stand for these protesters. At least, I don’t want them lose the right of fighting for their rights. And btw, even such huge protest happening, there is no report, no discussion in China, even message left on SNS also get censored or vanished. Terrifying. Edit: apologize for uncertain words, it needs add a time limitation. The first protest was happening at 9th June and all Chinese medi…

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

In my bubble where people who has attended top schools and chose to stay in China. Almost all of them are aware of what is being censored. But people are too busy with earning their next million to care about those censored political topics.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#145

Post by kristofferR »

wangii wrote: post #121
dmix wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP. No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you? honestly, I think we deserve whatever we…

"Just leave us alone while we're building concentration camps. Nothing to see here, move along."

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#146

Post by NotSammyHagar »

chantelles wrote: post #134
pishpash wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like anything, the lack of competition and criticism makes the Chinese political culture susceptible to attacks and its propaganda weak and useless. Censorship has worked a little too well, and it's become a nasty habit to break out of. That's why the biggest traitor in modern times is Fang Binxing, the father of the GFW, though he probably believed himself to be a patriot.

Lack of competition and criticism is the foundation of Western democracy too. Polemics is not a space where actual meaning has ever sprung from; yet try to find anywhere here or in media or in real life discussions that are not that shape. Binaries shape all we are. I do not feel I have enough knowledge to judge life anywhere but where I live. I live in the West; I experience extreme censorship of my ideas due to my…

Where do you live in the west? I'm in the us, I just don't see extreme censorship except for racist pandering comments. Don't like the president, or cell phones, or capitalism, all good. Don't like poor people, no one will try to stop you. Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking. I haven't lived in China but I see the value in people being free to ask questions, read what they want, and not be worried about being kidnapped in the night and taken to prison - those seem pretty safe as universal rights to me.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#147

Post by chobeat »

educationdata wrote: post #143
kumosawa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China mainland, there is a censor tech named Great Firewall.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall?wprov=sfti1 ) It just cut off the connection between China and the World Internet by blocking famous website like Twitter, Facebook etc. Only the people have eagerness of finding truth will use anti-blocking tech like VPN to find information by themselves. Of course, it’s inconvenience and sometimes not worki…

> Being lack of information, most citizens support gov’s standpoint. NO, because of the censorship, we do not know how many people actually support gov’s standpoint. Your statement is pure speculation and does not have any factual basis. The Chinese government will not allow any professional organization to conduct and publish a survey like: "Do you support the censorship?", or "Do you support protest in HK?", or "Do…

This is the wishful thinking of a westerner projecting its values on other people. The colonization of China ended almost a century ago, didn't you get the news?

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#148

Post by iknak »

wangii wrote: post #121
dmix wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb... It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can c…

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP. No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you? honestly, I think we deserve whatever we…

It's funny to make comparison between CCP and "foreign power" as CCP was originally funded by the Soviets, which is, of course, a "foreign power". And the sad truth is that you as an individual really can't make opinions for "we" which I'd take as "Chinese people" here. The problem is that the opposite opinions to yours are getting oppressed in a unprecedented way. Lastly, "do business" doesn't mean "cheat and take advantage", as civilized people won't call IP theft as part of "business". I didn't expect to see such Wumao speech here (no matter you're paid or not) and really don't want to waste more time on your typical Wumao debates and tricks, so plz don't reply thx.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#149

Post by zed88 »

I can recall from a personal experience while working for a UN agency.

We had a form with country dropdown selector, and it included Taiwan.

We had huge pressure from the local Chinese embassy to remove it.

And they also called up some really high up UN officials, all for a dropdown!

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#150

Post by NotSammyHagar »

petre wrote: post #133
Leary wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One Country, Two Systems actually stipulates that Hong Kong shall enjoy a high degree of autonomy for "at least" 50 years, there is nothing that state what will actually happen afterwards. Therefore it is conceivable for Hong Kong to remain somewhat autonomous after 2047, after which, it is possible for mainland China to further develop politically and legally so that integration would cause less of an issue.

It's more like whisful thinking. The CCP is just being patient, eroding HK autonomy one law at a time so people don't realize it or become complacent.

people do realize it. but its unclear what will happen on the long term.
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