Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#131

Post by rqs » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

kumosawa wrote: post #39

I’m from china mainland, and I stand for these protesters. At least, I don’t want them lose the right of fighting for their rights. And btw, even such huge protest happening, there is no report, no discussion in China, even message left on SNS also get censored or vanished. Terrifying. Edit: apologize for uncertain words, it needs add a time limitation. The first protest was happening at 9th June and all Chinese medi…

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

> How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you?

Let me answer this question as well, because, well, I'm entitled.

It's very very rare to see Chinese people use VPN other than for maybe to play games, most people here is just living, don't even curious about the outside world. Even worse, among those who did got out, some saw those China's wrong doings and then they choose to simply denial.

And is the very reason of why it is important to spread information: To establish some basic understanding. It's not about who is wining, not about trade war, it's not about tech superiority or smear tactics, it's about basic right and wrong.

Recently, the government issued a series of laws and regulations to further limit Chinese people's ability to access information outside of China by making it straight out illegal. And some individuals already been punished for just using a proxy.

Also, since June 1, the GFW has been upgraded to block any high risk unknown traffic, which is intended to stop Shadowsocks and other traffic encryption tools that can be used to by pass GFW's screening. It's very effective, many people lost connection with their proxy because of this.

HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!)

And I must say, HongKongers is really bad at resonating with others, especially with mainlanders. They must know that many people in mainland is actually quite supportive of some of their protects, we both want real democracy in our country and we are NOT enemies (Well, at least on this subject, we still love tax-free milk and iPhone so).

> Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

Young people who don't interested to see outside world are also not interested in figuring out what's really going on[0]. Old people who actually felt the pain knows more about the pain.

I also want to add, even in China, under such heavy censorship, people still blaming the government in some ways. So I don't think it's just "genuinely ignorant", but more of a "so what you can do about it?".

[0] An unrelated but "interesting" pic for you: https://twitter.com/1240883174Hu/status/1050010276584550400

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#132

Post by j16sdiz » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

the protest was not just about anti china: https://medium.com/@sidneyfong/hong-kongs-extradition-bill-i...

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#133

Post by petre » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:10 AM UTC

Leary wrote: post #18

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

One Country, Two Systems actually stipulates that Hong Kong shall enjoy a high degree of autonomy for "at least" 50 years, there is nothing that state what will actually happen afterwards. Therefore it is conceivable for Hong Kong to remain somewhat autonomous after 2047, after which, it is possible for mainland China to further develop politically and legally so that integration would cause less of an issue.

It's more like whisful thinking. The CCP is just being patient, eroding HK autonomy one law at a time so people don't realize it or become complacent.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#134

Post by chantelles » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:12 AM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #123

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those students see the government mostly aligned with their interests and have benefits from a lifetime of indoctrination via a higher end public school system. Censorship is more for the less elite classes that don’t have those benefits. Even then, if China decided not to censor anything tomorrow and just went with western-style spin, 80% of the population would basically still agree with the government. That they d…

Like anything, the lack of competition and criticism makes the Chinese political culture susceptible to attacks and its propaganda weak and useless. Censorship has worked a little too well, and it's become a nasty habit to break out of. That's why the biggest traitor in modern times is Fang Binxing, the father of the GFW, though he probably believed himself to be a patriot.

Lack of competition and criticism is the foundation of Western democracy too. Polemics is not a space where actual meaning has ever sprung from; yet try to find anywhere here or in media or in real life discussions that are not that shape. Binaries shape all we are. I do not feel I have enough knowledge to judge life anywhere but where I live. I live in the West; I experience extreme censorship of my ideas due to my gender, class and career choices.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#135

Post by xtirpation » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

hker wrote: post #80

lostmsu wrote: post #2

Considering, that HK leader did not immediately withdrew the bill after the first protest, it is only natural to assume, that that person does not represent the will of the people. So it makes sense to impeach.

Whether and when the current Chief Executive, Carrie Lam, will be removed, is decided by CCP. Let me explain. Excluding the current (4th) Chief Executive Carrie Lam, there have been three other Chief Executives [1], and the upshot is that two of them experienced large protests--in 2003 for 1st CE Tung Chee-hwa, in 2014 for 3rd CE Leung Chun-ying--and both could not complete their second terms due to protests. It is c…

>who is serving prison time

Donald Tsang was released earlier this year [0]

[0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Tsang

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#136

Post by petre » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

chr1 wrote: post #21

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

What alternative do you propose for them? emigrate now? By 2047 many things could change, maybe China would become more democratic, maybe it would be easier to build a floating city, maybe indeed China would agree to leave more autonomy. The long term plan for everyone is to die, but improving things in short term is still worth it.

Emigrate to where? Taiwan? Singapore? Other places with a vibrant Chinese community? By 2047 things could change for the worse. You're being overly optimistic when all signs hint that it's getting worse. They're too close to mainland with the PLA at their doorstep.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#137

Post by byw » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:30 AM UTC

whoevercares wrote: post #71

intrasight wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps true in theory, but the practice of history says otherwise. Any anyway, it's not China that going to collapse, but the dictatorial regime.

Oh so China can survive a regime rotation without collapsing...sorry never happened once in China’s history

Depends on how you define a regime. If we can be a bit wishy-washy, Deng rewrote the constitution from scratch and was essentially running it like a new regime, but still paid lip service to Mao to prevent mutiny. A similar change is not unthinkable if Hu/Wen/Li's liberal faction gets in power.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#138

Post by rgbrenner » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:31 AM UTC

jake_the_third wrote: post #92

brobinson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We allow similar censorship in the US (of things like extremist propaganda or hate speech) with a similar justification. The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand. The US government can't do anything about you hosting a website and posting extremist propaganda/hate speech on it. (the exception being speech which is _likely_ to cause _imminent lawless…

> The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand. Is this really a meaningful difference if the end result is the same?

Yes, because the alternative is the government forcing a 3rd party to provide a platform for speech they disagree with. And since that platform isn't free, you're also forcing them to spend their own resources to support it.

Those 3rd parties have rights too. They shouldn't be required to support and provide resources for speech they disagree with.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#139

Post by teknologist » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:37 AM UTC

Danieru wrote: post #67

nine_k wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2047 is 28 years from today. A number of things may change.uh China during that time; the leadership of CPC very likely will have changed. 28 years ago, in 1991, China looked notably different from what it is today.

Indeed, 28 years ago China was not even a dictatorship! It is foolish to think China in another 28 years is going to be nicer. Despot regimes get worse before they collapse. Sadly even the collapse is not a reprieve.

This is indeed true. I find it quite surprising that most Chinese people in PRC believe that it will, though. I suppose one can have 5000 years of cultural history but that does not imply that lessons have been learned.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#140

Post by hker » Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

rqs wrote: post #131

lawrenceyan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

> How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you? Let me answer this question as well, because, well, I'm entitled. It's very very rare to see Chinese people use VPN other than for maybe to play games, most people here is just living, don't even curious about the outside world. Even worse, among those who did got out, some saw those China's…

> HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!)

Hong Kong people are trying to do their best--after all, with no army of its own, 2 million people went to the street to voice out, peacefully--but support from mainland China, and from the rest of the world (not necessarily US) would definitely help. And we do thank the attention and support we have been receiving in previous weeks, which led to the suspension of the extradition law.

We know the battle is not over yet, not before the resolution regarding 2047 (50 years from the handover in 1997) is clear, not before the fate of Hong Kong's autonomy is sealed.

> And I must say, HongKongers is really bad at resonating with others, especially with mainlanders. They must know that many people in mainland is actually quite supportive of some of their protects, we both want real democracy in our country and we are NOT enemies (Well, at least on this subject, we still love tax-free milk and iPhone so).

Thank you for your support.

I, for one, do not treat mainland people as enemies, and I think many Hong Kong people share my view. If you can point out concretely how Hong Kong people have been misunderstanding mainland people, please let us know. We want to speak in a way that more people can understand.