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All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

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Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#81

Post by ics »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #61
ics wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on one of the densest power grids in the world (NYC) on the team which does emergency transformer replacements and can possibly answer questions about this. From failure to in service for a single transformer in Manhattan is down to 2-3 weeks. That includes design and engineering (my part), permitting, and construction. For fast transformer replacements we rely on two paths, either system spares (identical uni…

How long would NYC be out in the case of a massive solar flare that blows out all transformers in the city?

The interesting thing in this scenario is that if units were lost and unrecoverable in large swaths you wouldn't have to worry nearly as much about matching the legacy system perfectly, accidentally tripping out adjacent units, or things like that. Transformer replacements might even be easy, we'd just take whatever we had and wire it up anywhere it fits and can provide meaningful service. I'd be more worried about the issues to the underground system (nearly 100,000 miles of cable and piping) once oil stops circulating for long amounts of time, generators, and battery systems.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#82

Post by DuskStar »

EGreg wrote: post #78

I really take no pleasure in saying this THE PROBLEM IS CENTRALIZATION!!!! In this case, of the electric grids. In USA there are a few huge transformers that can be knocked out with an EMP, carrington event or otherwise, and plunge the USA into a similar situation. We need to decentralize: Electric grids (solar, etc.) Cellphone towers and ISPs (mesh networks) Social software and collaboration (open source software pl…

Are you sure that the problem is centralization and not interconnectedness? I think if Argentina had just one generating plant they would have found it a lot easier to get things back up and running - no coordination problems - and if they had a few dozen independent grids then only a handful of them would have been affected (just one, or even none). The grid, as it exists today, is rather distributed - hundreds of generating plants in both US East and US West, and I imagine the situation is similar in South America.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#83

Post by freddie_mercury »

mromanuk wrote: post #2

I was going to post this. Thanks. Looks like Uruguay, Paraguay, south of Brazil, Bolivia are also affected. Several million people. It’s raining, no internet, this will be a long Sunday. Also today is father’s day, will be a celebration with candles like in XIX :)

It isn't Father's Day in Uruguay, Brazil, or Bolivia.

Not every country in the world celebrates holidays on the same day that US Congress designates them.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#84

Post by madaxe_again »

ClassyJacket wrote: post #80
kragen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, electric showers are common in much of Latin America. In theory you could build them to be safe, but often they aren't. I showered with a tank-based electric shower today: you fill the tank, plug it in until it's hot, unplug it, step underneath, and open the valve. This arrangement has less risk of electrical shock, but it's far less convenient. Because the power was out, I filled it with hot water from the tan…

Many of the showers in Scotland are electric too, but they look much more modern and safe than the Asian and South American ones I've seen on the internet.

The difference is that in Scotland and Europe, it’s just one or two insulated heating elements that the water flows past. There are numerous safeties, overheat protectors, usually an RCD - in short, you’d be very unlucky to get a shock.

In South America, I’ve seen two types. One: an element, but it’s uninsulated and has no safety features. This is usually operated by a water pressure switch and operates by heating a thin resistive element up. High danger of faults to earth (you’re earth).

The other kind has me rather gobsmacked - the water is the element. The idea is to just pump in enough juice that the water starts to flash boil, and forms a plasma channel that then heats the surrounding water. Ostensibly safe, if earthed, but I really disliked the 60hz skin tingle - later discovered that they’d hooked earth up to the third phase in that house, when I plugged my laptop in. Metal case, leg, funky chicken. I guess the shower is reliant on skin effect to not kill you.

There’s a really great YouTuber who is forever tearing domestic appliances apart - it’s actually quite amazing how some stuff is built, both in a good way and a bad way.

Links to showers:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwuhFLsowRc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjA0aee07k

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#85

Post by kragen »

pdonis wrote: post #75
L_Rahman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but deeply interesting to me and especially so as I travel around South America. I am completely fascinated by the home infrastructure choices in different parts of the world. I'm currently in Sao Paulo and the hot water setup is a little scary. There's no hot water reserve or hot water plumbing at all. The only hot water source is in the shower. It's heated electrically in real time by a 5000W appliance that…

5000W seems like a very low power draw for heating on the spot. Heating water requires about 4000W per degree Celsius for a flow rate of 1 liter/sec; a typical shower flow rate is maybe a third of that, so call it 1000W per degree Celsius of heating. So 5000W would only give about 5 degrees Celsius of heating, which doesn't seem like much.

While you're right that 5000 W is only 1.2 kelvin liters per second on water, typical shower flow rates are about 8 ℓ/minute, 133 mℓ/s in SI units, and at that flow rate you get about 9°C of heating. This may be a reason electric showers are more popular in tropical countries like Brazil, Perú, and Costa Rica: ΔT = 9° gets you from 28° to 37° just fine. And you always (well, usually) have the option of lowering the shower flow rate to get a wimpier flow of much hotter water.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#86

Post by imjustsaying »

sergiomattei wrote: post #17
kasperni wrote: post #3

Argentina is world’s eighth largest country. I find it mind blowing that you can have a power outage that covers the whole country (+ some more).

Puerto Rico was without power for months after Hurricane Maria.

parts, not the whole island. correct me if im wrong

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#87

Post by ahje »

EGreg wrote: post #78

I really take no pleasure in saying this THE PROBLEM IS CENTRALIZATION!!!! In this case, of the electric grids. In USA there are a few huge transformers that can be knocked out with an EMP, carrington event or otherwise, and plunge the USA into a similar situation. We need to decentralize: Electric grids (solar, etc.) Cellphone towers and ISPs (mesh networks) Social software and collaboration (open source software pl…

Considering the current advances in solar technology, I think we'll soon hit the point where a local power grid powered by solar panels and batteries will be more efficient for people living a bit remote, and I do believe that we will see a larger amount of people living "off-grid" in the rural areas of the future.

Communications networks are the big problem, but sattellite-based solutions like Starlink might help in that regard.

Problem is that none of it will help if the Sun decides to throw a bunch of star stuff our way; local grids will be just as fried as the big ones, and it's better to make sure people are able to survive on their own without electricity for at least a few days.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#88

Post by sunkensheep »

6thaccount2 wrote: post #63
hfkajshfaks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't really though. A cascading failure can knock out an entire grid. The Northeast blackout is an example. A line goes out. while (there some lines are still live): The current redistributes itself among neighboring lines. Neighboring lines trip end BlackStart() BlackStart() is fun. Having your plants and grid down is like having a dead battery (plants use ~30% of the electricity they gen on themselves) and no o…

Technically there is a last step you didn't mention. At some point after your island is ready, you'll want to reconnect with other islands. I've never done it in real life, but have done so in many simulations. I forget the exact calculations involved (it's been years and I'm no longer involved with that area of operations), but you want to make sure your frequency matches the grid you're connecting with to within a…

To connect two regions, we align the phase of the two islands. As the voltage across our switch bank falls to zero, we close the switches. It's not a big difference from between synchronizing a generator. The phase is aligned by requesting small changes to generator output, and measurement is done by synchrophasor.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#89

Post by sunkensheep »

mulmen wrote: post #72
hfkajshfaks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't really though. A cascading failure can knock out an entire grid. The Northeast blackout is an example. A line goes out. while (there some lines are still live): The current redistributes itself among neighboring lines. Neighboring lines trip end BlackStart() BlackStart() is fun. Having your plants and grid down is like having a dead battery (plants use ~30% of the electricity they gen on themselves) and no o…

Thanks for this, it is very informative and not something I had considered before. I'm curious about the statement about renewables though because it seems that with wind or solar the production is very irregular even in normal operation. Doesn't that mean there has to be some technology to balance individual generator differences which would make re-starting those installations easier? Re: Nuclear, how much energy i…

There can be issues with a line-commutated inverter or asynchronous generation (wind-farms might have both) if the fault level is too low (synchronous plant too small or too distant). More recent research has shown the benefits of adding grid support (reactive power control, fault response) to the control system of renewable generation.

In future I would expect renewable and storage elements to provide black-start frequency reference.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#90

Post by amelius »

amaterasu wrote: post #31
amelius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have a grid with a large number of nodes, how do you impose which node is running at the correct (reference) frequency and phase? Do the edges of the grid impose a master-slave relationship?

I'm trivialising the problem, but whichever station energises the grid first becomes the reference. An operating grid has what may as well be infinite inertia (it isn't infinite of course), so new stations coming online must match it (or try and change the phase of the grid to match theirs). I visited a power station in Melbourne many years ago, and they have the shattered remains of a turbine and generator that was…

Ok but imagine a circular grid of N nodes. Following the circle, the stations are connected to the grid. Of course there is a small, inevitable mismatch at every connection. Then, when connecting the last node, you might get a problem which can only be solved by adjusting the settings at the other nodes.
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