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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#201

Post by sriram_malhar »

wyuenho wrote: post #188
XuMiao wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP does have a lot of room to improve in protecting human rights. But to be fair, for the matter of national security, every country takes the extreme measure. Look at the Assange case. Neither Swedish nor US government makes any sense to me.

Assange will get a fair trial, does the PRC know what a fair trial is?

You must be kidding. Trump's going to war on trumped up evidence; you think a single guy is going to get a hearing?

That said, PRC is a completely different ballgame. What I wouldn't give to see all of China revolt like they are doing in HK.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#202

Post by sexy_seedbox »

geophile wrote: post #31

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

Hong Kong is still a finance heavyweight and still a gateway to China for many. Many Chinese companies in the past few years have and prefer to list their IPOs in HK rather than elsewhere because of HK's stable economy and I'm sure they would like to keep it that way (for now).

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#203

Post by RaceWon »

RaceWon wrote: post #113
loyukfai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other 5/7 may watch TVB - a HK TV channel of which to many people is their only news source, and which has since been bought by mainlanders, just like many other media and publishing assets in HK - and believe in something totally else. No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job and these protesters are arrogant, dis-obedient trouble-makers. The gap in understanding…

> No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job I get that: we have the same thing here in the USA with many newspapers and some TV stations. Heck, because of this, some people actually believe President Trump is a Russian Agent, you know, despite the fact that he is one of the great capitalists of all time, and he never ran for Any elected office until he won the Presiden…

I stand corrected: I said > "and he never ran for Any elected office until he won the Presidency"

Technically he did run in 2000, I apologize for the inaccuracy; however it was more akin to dipping one's toe into the shark infested waters of big time politics than a full on assault.

I still feel he accomplished the impossible; like Marquez does in MotoGP, or Senna did in F1--people like that are Rare indeed, and I respect the hell out of that ability, and you trifle with them at your own risk.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#204

Post by echaozh »

spookieboogie wrote: post #196
confusedhnguy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to add more details. I have spent 9 years in the US. When I first came here, I was fed up with CCP's bs and thought the US and its system is the best. But now I have come to the conclusion that it is just as evil as the CCP, but in different ways. I think so because I have witnessed first hand about how insulting the Chinese is still acceptable [0] even in the PC culture (ppl still ask me if I eat dog…

FYI, this conversation is very productive and contributes to the greater conversation in a positive way. Thank you for bringing in a unique viewpoint. I hope we all can work better towards the future. > I think so because I have witnessed first hand about how insulting the Chinese is still acceptable [0] even in the PC culture (ppl still ask me if I eat dogs), how biased the mainstream media are, and how the democrat…

I think the root of the conflict between the West and China is the arrogance of the Westerners and the (slowly rising) confidence and impatience of the Chinese.

The arrogance is not only the jokes or bamboo ceilings. The deepest arrogance is the unwilingness to understand the Chinese way, let alone respecting it.

Why do the Chinese tolerate their government? Are they silly or are they all cowards? No. There are just trade-offs. And there is reality. So, do the homeless in US cities who live under bridges enjoy the democracy? Do they really have a way to change their way of living by having the right to vote? The Chinese people are practical and still in the low tiers of Maslow's hirearchy of needs, and the government provides them with the basic needs. Yeah, we have electricity, phone signals, roads and bridges for the smallest villeges scattered in mountains. Not sure if the US can promise the same.

And there are so many myths about Chinese legal system or sensoring. Yeah we got problems in these fields, but such problems are not always pushed top down. The Chinese people also have a huge influence on the court system, and the justice popular in China may not be popular in the West. About the punishment to people refusing to pay the debts, or to people refusing to give up seats belonging to other passenger on the trains. The Westerners throw so much FUD at it, but it's actually quite well-accepted by the Chinese. So, what do you actually want the Chinese to have? What you think is good for them, or what they actually want? What makes you a better decision maker?

And the arrest of people making outrageous remarks on the Internet are actually well accepted too. The police may actually act on request of other civilians seeing those remarks and get offended. And most such remarks are actually bordering or well into the territory of hate crime. Don't you talk about joking about presidents. More like humiliations, and not to officials, but to veterans, war heroes, moral code, and other people and things honored by the majority of the society. Do they deserve arrest? Perhaps and perhaps not. But the Chinese people are not complaining.

So, do you Westerners really want diversity of cultures or not? If you really mean it, try to understand the Chinese and respect their way. Like you claim to have done to the Islamic way. If you don't, just shut up and let it be.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#205

Post by pimmen »

markdown wrote: post #176
pimmen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has a democratic system, Hong Kong has no democratic way to get rid of Lam. USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights. Most of the posters are in Chinese. Brexit will be worse for the UK economically, leaving China would be good for HK democratically. And, also, the UK has an enshrined right to leave thanks to article 50, HK does not have that right at all.

> USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights. Surely you jest. USA practices extraordinary rendition, torture, and assassination of their own citizens without trial.

Not even remotely to the same extent as China. Even Joaquin Guzman gets a trial.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#206

Post by pishpash »

CydeWeys wrote: post #24
swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

"Suspended" just means that it would be passed as soon as the protest pressure lets up. That's not good enough. They haven't made it yet.

"Suspended" is a word to save face. Article 23 passage is also "suspended". For all practical purposes the bill's dead.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#207

Post by markdown »

pimmen wrote: post #205
markdown wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights. Surely you jest. USA practices extraordinary rendition, torture, and assassination of their own citizens without trial.

Not even remotely to the same extent as China. Even Joaquin Guzman gets a trial.

Anwar al-Awlaki didn't get one.

I guess just a little bit of extrajudicial murder by the State is OK.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#208

Post by pimmen »

markdown wrote: post #207
pimmen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even remotely to the same extent as China. Even Joaquin Guzman gets a trial.

Anwar al-Awlaki didn't get one. I guess just a little bit of extrajudicial murder by the State is OK.

It is never ok, but there is a clear difference in the extent to which it occurs, the legality of it and how it’s handled by the government. For example, Gui Minhai has also criticized the US government but they didn’t kidnap him and keep him from exercising his right to council.

Or is your argument that every country that has performed extra judicial punishments, no matter the circumstances or judicial proceedings that followed, is as unreliable in its protection of human rights as China?

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#209

Post by markdown »

pimmen wrote: post #208
markdown wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anwar al-Awlaki didn't get one. I guess just a little bit of extrajudicial murder by the State is OK.

It is never ok, but there is a clear difference in the extent to which it occurs, the legality of it and how it’s handled by the government. For example, Gui Minhai has also criticized the US government but they didn’t kidnap him and keep him from exercising his right to council. Or is your argument that every country that has performed extra judicial punishments, no matter the circumstances or judicial proceedings t…

> is as unreliable in its protection of human rights as China?

The US is vastly worse than China in this regard. Hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered by the US govt in the middle east in the past two decades alone. The US does OK (and yes, obviously much better than China) domestically, but their respect for human rights ends at the border.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#210

Post by pimmen »

markdown wrote: post #209
pimmen wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is never ok, but there is a clear difference in the extent to which it occurs, the legality of it and how it’s handled by the government. For example, Gui Minhai has also criticized the US government but they didn’t kidnap him and keep him from exercising his right to council. Or is your argument that every country that has performed extra judicial punishments, no matter the circumstances or judicial proceedings t…

> is as unreliable in its protection of human rights as China? The US is vastly worse than China in this regard. Hundreds of thousands have been slaughtered by the US govt in the middle east in the past two decades alone. The US does OK (and yes, obviously much better than China) domestically, but their respect for human rights ends at the border.

And this is a discussion about domestic courts, that’s what’s relevant to this article because those are the ones HK would extradite to. Extraditing to an American court is far more in line with respecting human rights than to a Chinese court.
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