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Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#21

Post by chr1 »

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

What alternative do you propose for them? emigrate now? By 2047 many things could change, maybe China would become more democratic, maybe it would be easier to build a floating city, maybe indeed China would agree to leave more autonomy. The long term plan for everyone is to die, but improving things in short term is still worth it.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#22

Post by JumpCrisscross »

chrisseaton wrote: post #11
lostmsu wrote: post #2

Considering, that HK leader did not immediately withdrew the bill after the first protest, it is only natural to assume, that that person does not represent the will of the people. So it makes sense to impeach.

> it is only natural to assume, that that person does not represent the will of the people. So it makes sense to impeach. Is that what impeachment means? To remove someone because they've lost popular support? I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some kind of crime or wrongdoing. Being unpopular isn't a crime.

> I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some kind of crime or wrongdoing

Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official” [1]. Standards vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But since the decision is made by a political body, not judges, it is ultimately a political decision.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#23

Post by chrisseaton »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22
chrisseaton wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is only natural to assume, that that person does not represent the will of the people. So it makes sense to impeach. Is that what impeachment means? To remove someone because they've lost popular support? I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some kind of crime or wrongdoing. Being unpopular isn't a crime.

> I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some kind of crime or wrongdoing Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official” [1]. Standards vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But since the decision is made by a political body, not judges, it is ultimately a political decision. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment

> Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official”

The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong it requires 'serious breach of law or dereliction of duty'. I can't see how becoming unpopular would meet either of those conditions?

> since the decision is made by a political body, not judges

The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong impeachment charges are investigated by judges.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#24

Post by JumpCrisscross »

chrisseaton wrote: post #23
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought impeachment was rather about charging a public official with some kind of crime or wrongdoing Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official” [1]. Standards vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But since the decision is made by a political body, not judges, it is ultimately a political decision. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment

> Impeachment “is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official” The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong it requires 'serious breach of law or dereliction of duty'. I can't see how becoming unpopular would meet either of those conditions? > since the decision is made by a political body, not judges The article you've linked to says that in Hong Kong impeachment charg…

> it's investigated by the judiciary

A committee chaired by a judge investigates [1]. It then recommends findings to the LC. The LC, a political body, makes the decision to impeach.

> in Hong Kong it requires 'serious breach of law or dereliction of duty'

Practically speaking, based on history and the motivations of those involved, popularity figures into impeachment processes. Being unpopular doesn’t lead to impeachment alone. But pretty much anything could fit into Hong Kong’s “dereliction of duty” standard, for instance.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment#Hong_Kong

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#27

Post by closeparen »

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

30 years is a decently long time relative to China's current political system, it could change quite a bit by then.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#29

Post by mrobot »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19
tlear wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are idealists, their parents and grandparents were not subjected to Cultural revolution and rest of the brutality of PRC. They think they can keep the city they love as it is. Realistically their only hope is collapse of PRC. Never say never and who knows they might help it happen. I have quite a few classmates back from university (end of 90s start of 2000s) whose families saw writing on the wall, had enough $$…

> their only hope is collapse of PRC Not necessarily. A respectful and long-term oriented Beijing would be fine. (The CPC would need to change, to prevent a dictator-for-life like Xi from re-emerging.) There are a lot of win-win outcomes between the subjugation of Hong Kong and collapse of China.

He's not dictator-for-life, they simply don't have term limits.

Re: Why Hong Kong Is Still Marching

#30

Post by azernik »

smnrchrds wrote: post #12

Could someone please explain what the long-term goal of the protesters is? Best case scenario, HK and Chinese government postpone the integration until 2047. What then? When the borders come down, what will happen to all those who openly talked against Beijing government, held candlelight vigils for Tienanmen Square victims, and rallied and protested against a government who does not like people protesting and does n…

The extent to which they carry a flame for Tiananmen indicates that they have an all-China political vision as well.
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