Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#151

Post by CPLX » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #112

CPLX wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the wealthiest and most successful city in the history of world civilization and I can’t take a fucking train to any of the three massive airports. In fact recently at LaGuardia it’s been so dysfunctional that’s it’s impossible to be picked up by cars. Meanwhile, not too long ago I was in Lucerne, where I got on a train and then got off an hour or two later 100 feet from the check in counter at Zurich airpo…

Other than LaGuardia sucking all around, this complaint is completely invalid. You can take multiple subway lines directly to JFK from Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens. I do it myself all the time. You can take the E from Manhattan directly to the AirTran in under an hour. You can get there from Queens and Brooklyn even faster. NJ Transit trains (which you can get from midtown Manhattan) go directly to a Newark Airpor…

> You can take multiple subway lines directly to JFK

You're kidding right?

You can take a subway line to downtown Jamaica Queens, or to the fringes of a remote airport parking lot in Howard Beach, but you most certainly cannot take a subway anywhere near an actual JFK airport terminal.

As you point out, you can then walk hundreds of yards and navigate several sets of stairs or elevators to have the privilege of paying five bucks to get on the useless and slow "AirTrain" people mover and wait another 20 minutes and walk another hundred yards into the terminal.

In the rest of the world they take trains -- real trains, actual trains that go places -- and they run them into the terminals. You get on a train at a subway or train station in the center of the city and you get off in an airport, not 3 miles from an airport. If you've never experienced this go to Zurich, or London, or Munich, or like almost anywhere else.

They way we do it is insane. They're spending billions of dollars to totally renovate LGA right now and they still can't get this basic concept right.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#152

Post by geff82 » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #144

hollerith wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?

Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less o…

Besides San Francisco and New York I also think that the average software developer gets paid a lot more in Switzerland, especially tons more than in surrounding countries. The only caveat is that you are usually expected to speak German and/or french (there are jobs without that requirement, but one of those two languages will really make your life a lot easier).

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#153

Post by hollerith » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #144

hollerith wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?

Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less o…

I never claimed that America is the Best Country in the World™. In fact, I'm participating here because I'm living in the US and considering a move.

Net income is a better measure than net worth, and net income is higher in the US than in Switzerland -- both in absolute terms and relative to the respective cost of living.

Why is net income a better measure? Well, for one thing, if a country's economy is in danger of imploding and people can guess that that is so, they'll start saving more money. Living from paycheck to paycheck is irrational in any country, but it is less irrational the stabler the government and the economy of your country.

Lack of stability or more precisely the perception thereof is part of the reason personal savings rates are higher in China than in the US for example.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#154

Post by runarberg » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #54

Tomte wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.

How about taking over an entire continent from the natives, sharing a language and federal government that led to only ONE (count em) war on the continent in 300 years, and so on. Read Stratfor’s “inevitable empire” series on USA: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-united-st...

One war? Am I miscounting? There is the Spanish American war, the Mexican war, the war of 1812, the US Civil war (slave war), there were numerous Indian wars during the manifest destiny. Several wars in the Caribbean and Central America.

I’m sorry if this seems pedantic since it doesn’t affect your point, but I feel like it deserves some clarification.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#155

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #12

mruts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. I don't think it's an accident that America i…

> I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.

I agree that’s why the USA was dominant in the late 20th century, but how long until that reason expires? Are we going to be in 2070 still blaming WW2 for holding Europe back?

At some point it becomes less and less about WW2 and more about the USA’s relentless optimization for economic growth at all costs, often over other things that would make this country more civilized and humane.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#156

Post by snovv_crash » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

ScottFree wrote: post #137

eps wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other countries it's 10+10 years.

In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other non-EU passport holder. Unless something has changed?

What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable, just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#157

Post by lagg » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #130

fizzledbits wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of us admire artists and musicians who have totally devoted themselves to their craft, and we don’t condescendingly pity their “unhealthy work life balance”. My hero growing up was Feynman, who was doing physics every waking hour (or so I’ve read). It’s not like his estate is going to reap the economic benefits of his work; so was Feynman a pitiful sucker, abused by his university employers? Is it my responsibil…

Here's one possible take on the difference of perspective. There's a distinction to be made in the nature of the output . Feynman's physics work was investigating nature on behalf of humanity. What artists produce is spiritually/intellectually/emotionally edifying for other people. Contrast this with OP's [killing themselves to make a rich banker richer][0], or, say, working on the next addictive mobile game. This is…

On the contrary, I'm the only one not judging this guy by his profession. As a result their mindset and platitudes look just as pitiable and silly to me than if he were to make a post saying that he works as a grocery clerk.

P.S. Sincere apologies to clerks, you deal with the shit and are respected. Just using as a point about perception and weird notions of what people wear as badges of honor.

Edit: I also don't believe Feynman or any other scientist would define his life by the uni he researched for just as I don't believe an artist would define himself by his job with coca-cola

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#158

Post by EGreg » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #154

EGreg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about taking over an entire continent from the natives, sharing a language and federal government that led to only ONE (count em) war on the continent in 300 years, and so on. Read Stratfor’s “inevitable empire” series on USA: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/geopolitics-united-st...

One war? Am I miscounting? There is the Spanish American war, the Mexican war, the war of 1812, the US Civil war (slave war), there were numerous Indian wars during the manifest destiny. Several wars in the Caribbean and Central America. I’m sorry if this seems pedantic since it doesn’t affect your point, but I feel like it deserves some clarification.

I should have been clear - I meant a war between the states, analogous to the myriad wars between European countries in the meantime.

Empires and Federations are cool that way - the member states don’t waste resources fighting each other endlessly.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#159

Post by komali2 » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

hollerith wrote: post #153

komali2 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less o…

I never claimed that America is the Best Country in the World™. In fact, I'm participating here because I'm living in the US and considering a move. Net income is a better measure than net worth, and net income is higher in the US than in Switzerland -- both in absolute terms and relative to the respective cost of living. Why is net income a better measure? Well, for one thing, if a country's economy is in danger of…

This is the first time I've heard that the reason Americans aren't saving money is because of their confidence in the USD. Typically the reasons are that they can't afford their healthcare or housing costs, or are just financially illiterate.

If I wasn't confident in my currency, why would I save in it? The collapse of my government destroys my investment at the same time.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

#160

Post by Reedx » Sun, Jun 16, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #116

Reedx wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't noticed are the americans. Right, it's not like the world has benefited at all from modern innovations from the US. Like the Internet or the US' contributions to medical science and technology or humanitarian efforts. And why they're not using Google, iPhones or Android devices, watching American movies, etc. Also please expla…

> Then please explain why so many have bothered to immigrate here and started hugely successful companies? Because the US has cheap labor (read: low pay) compared to Switzerland?

No, considering most are from places with far cheaper labor. Like India and Asia.

Hiring in the US is expensive with high salaries (especially in tech) and healthcare costs.