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Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

economist.com

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Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#181

Post by zaroth »

adrianN wrote: post #100
Lendal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. It makes no sense. If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Why would you buy something that itself has a carbon footprint (manufacturing, distribution) and that will only serve to politically damage the cause you purport to care about? What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered pas…

> What do you want people to do, fly only battery-powered passenger airlines? Pay about $200 for each ton of carbon dioxide equivalent their flights blow into the air instead of benefiting from tax free kerosene.

No need to be punitive. Recognize that there are legitimate and important needs for travel.

The generally accepted social cost for a ton of CO2 is about $40. The per passenger emissions are about 3,500 miles per ton.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#182

Post by samcday »

wtdata wrote: post #180
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> holes in the ozone layer Funny you mention that. No one needed to panic, 1980s politicians appeared to remember what some of their job was. Two rather right leaning free-market monetarist politicians - Thatcher and Reagan - championed international action to phase out freon and other CFCs. Very successfully. The ozone hole closed. At the exact same time Thatcher was making speeches - to the UN and many others about…

The thing is, those Thatcher speeches (and of course all the movement in Europe) worked, we reduced our emissions by almost 30% in 30 years. Which makes it specially bad when a bunch of people from the comfort of their life in here, now decide they can go around with their extremist views of environmentalism causing havoc in no less than in an European country: i.e. the only set of industrialized countries that actua…

You made a similar point about China in one of the other siblings. But now you've expanded it to the point where you're contradicting yourself.

On the one hand, you're saying that trying to tackle climate change in the UK is pointless because China is contributing the lion's share of CO2. But then on the other hand you're equating the climate change crisis to crises that have come before and were proven to be exaggerated scenarios.

It might be worth you stating where you stand on climate change, otherwise I'm not really sure what points you're actually trying to make.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#183

Post by perfunctory »

deevolution wrote: post #48

Surely there must be other less annoying ways to get people excited about helping the environment...

If you have better ideas I am all ears. I'm afraid we have already exhausted all other options in the last few decades.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#184

Post by hannob »

wtdata wrote: post #162
samcday wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

> Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer

Yeah, it's really strange that a planetary risk doesn't come to pass when society reacts swiftly and does what science recommends them to do (i.e. banning CFCs, which the world did in the Montreal treaty).

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#185

Post by wtdata »

samcday wrote: post #182
wtdata wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, those Thatcher speeches (and of course all the movement in Europe) worked, we reduced our emissions by almost 30% in 30 years. Which makes it specially bad when a bunch of people from the comfort of their life in here, now decide they can go around with their extremist views of environmentalism causing havoc in no less than in an European country: i.e. the only set of industrialized countries that actua…

You made a similar point about China in one of the other siblings. But now you've expanded it to the point where you're contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you're saying that trying to tackle climate change in the UK is pointless because China is contributing the lion's share of CO2. But then on the other hand you're equating the climate change crisis to crises that have come before and were proven to be exagger…

No there is nothing contradictory, the points are simple:

1: These catastrophic scenarios have historically been great exaggerations of reality.

2: The major culprit at the moment, by a long margin, is China, while the EU has actually a very good track in reducing CO2 emissions.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#186

Post by wtdata »

hannob wrote: post #184
wtdata wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

> Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer Yeah, it's really strange that a planetary risk doesn't come to pass when society reacts swiftly and does what science recommends them to do (i.e. banning CFCs, which the world did in the Montreal treaty).

When counteracting what I said, you conveniently left aside:

1: The part where we, at the time, were told that the hole would take hundreds of years to close: It didn't. (Pear Reviewed article from 1996: https://www.nap.edu/read/9042/chapter/1#6)

2: China is still producing those CFCs: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44738952

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#187

Post by fulafel »

notahacker wrote: post #168
dorfsmay wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're an activist, and you live in a democracy, why wouldn't you affect change more meaningfully by participating in the democracy you live in? Like what? We have known about environmental issues for decades, paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get politicians to foerum to tackle the issue and sign treaties that the next guy voted in just decides they don't care, etc, etc, etc... Companies with more money…

And yet changes to UK environmental policy have actually helped bring the UK's carbon emissions down to 19th century levels (yes, caveats about where our stuff is made nowadays apply) and companies with more money than all citizen environmentalist groups put together plough far more money into efficiency savings and renewables than disinformation campaigns. There's a plausible argument that this isn't enough , but it…

This argument of "enough" is depends on doling quantums of responsibility along national borders. I think in policical decisionmaking on national level it's a necessary evil but not really helpful in thinking about legitimacy individual actions.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#188

Post by sfifs »

samcday wrote: post #170
civility wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No joke. Is it 10 years from now, 100 years, or something else?

Kinda bummed that you weren't joking. The tone of these threads is pretty depressing and I could have used a little pick-me-up. Anyway, I'm not a climatologist, but from what I understand we will be seeing significant global ramifications in the next 2-3 decades. In other words, it's not just the next generation that's going to suffer, it's going to be a great deal many of us who are alive today.

Not OP but if you're posting here on HN, you're probably not going to find too much trouble parsing the actual academic papers vs. press releases and IPCC summaries

When you do, you may find that while there's virtually no question human activities are having effect(s) on climate (very likely negative) there's a LOT of uncertainty on what and how much the effect(s) are.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#189

Post by samcday »

wtdata wrote: post #186
hannob wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer Yeah, it's really strange that a planetary risk doesn't come to pass when society reacts swiftly and does what science recommends them to do (i.e. banning CFCs, which the world did in the Montreal treaty).

When counteracting what I said, you conveniently left aside: 1: The part where we, at the time, were told that the hole would take hundreds of years to close: It didn't. (Pear Reviewed article from 1996: https://www.nap.edu/read/9042/chapter/1#6 ) 2: China is still producing those CFCs: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44738952

So what you're saying is, the fact we were wrong about how long it would take to recover proves that the whole thing was a farce? Your data says nothing to counter whether the ozone hole was actually a major problem (spoiler: it was).

The fact that China is flaunting the rules the international community agreed on means what, exactly? The undeniable fact is the ozone hole did NOT continue to grow, because the majority of the world halted their use of CFCs. And wouldn't you know it, when we stopped using CFCs we stopped fucking up our ozone!

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#190

Post by samcday »

wtdata wrote: post #185
samcday wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made a similar point about China in one of the other siblings. But now you've expanded it to the point where you're contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you're saying that trying to tackle climate change in the UK is pointless because China is contributing the lion's share of CO2. But then on the other hand you're equating the climate change crisis to crises that have come before and were proven to be exagger…

No there is nothing contradictory, the points are simple: 1: These catastrophic scenarios have historically been great exaggerations of reality. 2: The major culprit at the moment, by a long margin, is China, while the EU has actually a very good track in reducing CO2 emissions.

Okay, thanks for restating.

1. Yep, I somewhat agree. So can you please clarify your stance as to whether the current climate change situation is another example?

2. Yep, and I sincerely hope China also pulls their heads out of their collective asses. However, the UK is also not out of the woods yet [1]. Just because China has a long way to go doesn't mean any other country should be easing off the gas pedal (terrible pun, hope you'll forgive me).

[1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/9779945/8-08...

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