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Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

economist.com

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Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#171

Post by samcday »

threw902309 wrote: post #142
samcday wrote: post #109

The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…

[flagged]

I'm sorry that my forceful language offended you so much. Let me assure you I am 100% not a fascist :)

Democracy doesn't actually work a "certain way". There's many forms of democracy all over the world. Given that they're a human construct, one thing they all share in common is that they're deeply flawed in every permutation.

I'm not interested in throwing anything away. I'm interested in iterating on what we have and striving to make it better. For me, that's what it means to be human.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#172

Post by samcday »

orbifold wrote: post #158
wiz21c wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe it's time for eco-fascism ?

That’s why the Green Party is so popular in Germany. Voters get to live out their authoritarian streak in a socially acceptable way. It’s not an accident they are now in power in one of the more conservative parts of Germany (Baden-Würtenberg).

Would it be better if we went back to the good old days where those with an authoritarian streak vote parties into power that like to oppress (and worse) their critics?

Put differently, even if you disagree with the rhetoric of the German Green Party, surely you would agree that they're definitely not as bad as other certain parties that have come before in Germany? :)

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#173

Post by NeedMoreTea »

wtdata wrote: post #162
samcday wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to assume you're joking here, this definitely made me chuckle :)

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

> holes in the ozone layer

Funny you mention that. No one needed to panic, 1980s politicians appeared to remember what some of their job was. Two rather right leaning free-market monetarist politicians - Thatcher and Reagan - championed international action to phase out freon and other CFCs. Very successfully. The ozone hole closed.

At the exact same time Thatcher was making speeches - to the UN and many others about the need for strong international action on climate. That was less successful. Had anyone bothered to listen we might have sorted emissions by now. Here's one snippet from her 1989 UN speech[1]:

"We should work through this great organisation and its agencies to secure world-wide agreements on ways to cope with the effects of climate change, the thinning of the Ozone Layer, and the loss of precious species.

We need a realistic programme of action and an equally realistic timetable.

Each country has to contribute, and those countries who are industrialised must contribute more to help those who are not."

How prescient.

> sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade

He did not say that.

[1] https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107817

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#174

Post by samcday »

samcday wrote: post #160
tomjen3 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they are going about it the wrong way. It is know at this point that the way to change people is to befriend them, listen to them and make sure that they see you as human, despite the differences. It worked on the Klan, it worked on the babist church. Of course it is not satisfying and you get no virtue points.

Reminds me of the proverb "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar" I wholeheartedly agree with you that taking the time to really connect with an individual so that you can then grapple with their beliefs from a place of deep, shared understanding is more ideal. The problem is most of the scientific community is telling us that we're heading towards dire circumstances in the next few decades. I don't think we really…

But I guess nothing I say here matters because I clearly don't actually believe any of it and I'm just virtue signalling.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#176

Post by samcday »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #173
wtdata wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

> holes in the ozone layer Funny you mention that. No one needed to panic, 1980s politicians appeared to remember what some of their job was. Two rather right leaning free-market monetarist politicians - Thatcher and Reagan - championed international action to phase out freon and other CFCs. Very successfully. The ozone hole closed. At the exact same time Thatcher was making speeches - to the UN and many others about…

I wish more of the comments here were like this. Most of my comments are rubbish troll-bait, I'm glad people like NeedMoreTea exist. Someone who can calmly and rationally make a series of excellent points grounded in fact and history :)

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#177

Post by brokenkebab »

perfunctory wrote: post #175

One thing must be pretty obvious but reading the comments it seems like it's not. XR is very explicit about being non violent. I don't believe they would do anything that would endanger the safety of the passengers.

Flying drones close to busy airport is endangering the safety of passengers.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#178

Post by samcday »

perfunctory wrote: post #175

One thing must be pretty obvious but reading the comments it seems like it's not. XR is very explicit about being non violent. I don't believe they would do anything that would endanger the safety of the passengers.

I think the problem here is many people have heard that statement, but are choosing not to believe it. Instead they're reaching for UK legislation and straw mans to paint XR as a bunch of eco-fascist terrorists.

The only thing that gives me some hope is that generally when someone does something that provokes a ferocious response, it means they've really struck a nerve and gotten people's attention.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#179

Post by zaroth »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #134
navigatesol wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without breaking laws and causing public nuisance India would still be part of the British Empire and African Americans would still be second class citizens. Every protest isn't the equivalent of India fighting for independence. > Climate change is a vastly more serious problem than either of those two. Fortunately, you don't get to decide which issues are "most important" to other people.

So, you're saying global extinction isn't important? It's a tough line to swallow from the GP, but I wasn't expecting anyone to disagree that human effected climate change was important. Surely it's the most important issue humans have faced, ever?

Global extinction? No, we shouldn’t make trillion dollar policy decisions based on fairy tales.

Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow

#180

Post by wtdata »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #173
wtdata wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you though the same when we were told that in 20 year the Earth would be unhabitable due to the holes in the ozone layer and that it would take hundreds of not thousands of years to heal (that was 25 years ago btw)? How about when Al Gore told your that inconvenient truth that the sea levels world rise 100m during the next decade (that was 15 years ago btw)?

> holes in the ozone layer Funny you mention that. No one needed to panic, 1980s politicians appeared to remember what some of their job was. Two rather right leaning free-market monetarist politicians - Thatcher and Reagan - championed international action to phase out freon and other CFCs. Very successfully. The ozone hole closed. At the exact same time Thatcher was making speeches - to the UN and many others about…

The thing is, those Thatcher speeches (and of course all the movement in Europe) worked, we reduced our emissions by almost 30% in 30 years. Which makes it specially bad when a bunch of people from the comfort of their life in here, now decide they can go around with their extremist views of environmentalism causing havoc in no less than in an European country: i.e. the only set of industrialized countries that actually addressed the problem.

https://climateactiontracker.org/countries/eu/

And my post was not about not taking measures, but about the catastrophic scenarios we keep being presented.

> The ozone hole closed.

Well, the thing is my point is exactly the exaggeration of those catastrophic scenarios:

1: we kept being told the hole would take hundreds of years to close even if we completely shuted down all CFC emissions at the time.

2: China continues to emit CFCs: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44738952

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