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My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

drewdevault.com

231–240 of 431 posts

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#231
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with the GPL philosophy is that I can't find the mechanism that results in more general access to code in the world, when releasing your software as GPL versus BSD/MIT. What determines what's out there in the world, the decision to release source versus simply doesn't come down to "well I can use this GPL code as part of my project if I also GPL it, so I guess I'll share my code too." The decisions about w…

I don't really think any of what you said is actually true. There are many types of software project where the license doesn't matter at all - what matters is that the software exists. Someone is willing to pay to get it made, and they don't really give a hoot about "licensing". I believe this actually constitutes the majority of software - it's just invisible because no one really has much incentive to release it. B…

If somebody doesn't care about licensing, then it's trivial to convince them to use open source whether or not they want to tightly integrate with GPL code, so the GPL aspect isn't increasing the amount of open source software.

Your hardware driver example is pretty much the only example I can find where somebody is actually incentivized to release code, and willing to go against other concerns; so I appreciate that example! However it's certainly not universal for all hardware, there's plenty of binary blob drivers out there on Linux unfortunately. GPL doesn't need to universally make all software open source for it to be more successful, so I think it's important to look for the concrete overall results.

Let's contrast GCC and Clang here. For years, advancements in open source tooling was hindered by GCC's refusal to make improvements that could potentially be used by closed source software. Clang comes along, and all of a sudden an entire open source, tinkerable compiler/tooling/editing environment opens up, precisely because both open source and not GPL. People are willing to pay to improve it because they have the freedom to do what they want with their improvements, including the freedom to hold them back.

Despite not having the stick of the GPL, MIT-style license resulted in a better ability to tinker with the code, expand it to more areas, and improve software.

I don't see GPL as a crucial aspect for getting to that world where we have access to the important bits.

My goal is to enable as much as can be done with software that also has source available. There's a different optimization goal, that says "let's make sure that all software out there has the source available." This is a drastically different goal, however, because it can be achieved by creating less software capability overall, and just eliminating all the growth in capability that originates first in proprietary software but then gets reimplemented as code-available software. IMHO, the GPL seems to be aiming for the "any software out there also has source available" goal.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#232
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the MIT license gives you the freedom to make an awesome change to the free code you were given, and add it to your closed source application with no obligation to give those enhancements you made to the code to anyone else. It's also the freedom to make zero changes to the free code you were given, reuse it in your closed source software, and pass it off as your own. In a way, I feel like I should be a big enough…

"In a way, I feel like I should be a big enough person to be okay with this, but I'm not." One of the distinctions I like to draw strongly is between "nice" and "good". They are not the same, and at times, are actively at odds with each other. It is certainly nice to give away your software to everybody, unconditionally, and not be bothered if your code does happen to end up being a fundamental component of some mult…

> I don't think "being comfortable with being exploited" is a component of "being a big person".

In the context of the types of projects I was imagining, a company would likely just rewrite any code that wasn't available via MIT or similar. If I'm not getting anything in return either way, am I being exploited?

Logically, if the outcome is the same for me, there's no reason to make others redo work.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#233

I can't relate to this at all, I feel like I went the opposite way. I started out putting all of my work out under GPL but slowly realized how restrictive and demanding such a license actually is, I think public domain is the license that provides the most good to the world as a whole. It enriches everyone, even those who I don't necessarily agree with. It is a much more powerful statement in my view to provide work…

I'm sure you understand this already, but corporations can repackage and sell GPL code. The main thing you're granting in choosing a permissive license is the right to deny others the right to enjoy future improvements to the code. This is why in practice permissively licensed code is more successful in industry. Industries like to exercise the right to make proprietary improvements to open source code.

> can repackage and sell GPL code

Can you give me some detail about how/when this happens? I was under the impression that you can sell support(or other ancillary services) for GPL'd code, but not for the code itself.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's definitely a valid PoV, but you just have to realize/accept that it may empower people who have power over you. Newtons Equations has also empowered the powerful for a while now but I think we are still happy that they are available for free for everyone without any limitations.

What? I'm really struggling to find the nugget of 'point' in there, but... what? Are you saying that Gravity is somehow biased toward powerful people? Are you saying that refraction is somehow biased toward powerful people? I'm left so confused by your comment. It's amazing -- hopefully in a good way!)

> I'm left so confused by your comment. It's amazing -- hopefully in a good way!)

This is such a great positive way to reply, kudos

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#236

This may go either way for you, but I feel like the GPL is the closest thing that programmers have to a union. It guarantees that our obligations to users and other programmers always supersede the obligations that we have to our employer. They are a law hack that encodes professionalism. edit: it seems obvious that a doctor's obligations should be to the patient, then to medicine, then to the particular institution…

> but I feel like the GPL is the closest thing that programmers have to a union

But unions generally exist to make their members rich. GPL has the opposite effect, it means you can't sell your code so you become poor.

It's like the opposite of a union; a collective agreement among a group of professionals whereby they mutually agree to prevent each other from making money.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#237
post #132
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GCC has the GCC Runtime Library Exception: the resulting binary of code compiled with GCC doesn't need to licensed under GPL.

Grandparent is talking about a modified GCC. Not some binary compiled with GCC.

If they aren't distributing their modified GCC with the hardware, they have no obligation to release the source code either.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#238

I can't relate to this at all, I feel like I went the opposite way. I started out putting all of my work out under GPL but slowly realized how restrictive and demanding such a license actually is, I think public domain is the license that provides the most good to the world as a whole. It enriches everyone, even those who I don't necessarily agree with. It is a much more powerful statement in my view to provide work…

I'm sure you understand this already, but corporations can repackage and sell GPL code. The main thing you're granting in choosing a permissive license is the right to deny others the right to enjoy future improvements to the code. This is why in practice permissively licensed code is more successful in industry. Industries like to exercise the right to make proprietary improvements to open source code.

> the right to enjoy future improvements to the code

Why is that a “right”?

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you understand this already, but corporations can repackage and sell GPL code. The main thing you're granting in choosing a permissive license is the right to deny others the right to enjoy future improvements to the code. This is why in practice permissively licensed code is more successful in industry. Industries like to exercise the right to make proprietary improvements to open source code.

> can repackage and sell GPL code Can you give me some detail about how/when this happens? I was under the impression that you can sell support (or other ancillary services) for GPL'd code, but not for the code itself.

Anyone can sell software built from GPL code, but if/when they do so, they are obligated to provide source code for that software to anyone receiving a copy, and those users are permitted to redistribute both the software and the source code as long as they also adhere to the GPL.

Re: My Personal Journey from MIT to GPL

#240

Nonfree software is often malware, https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/proprietary.en.html , and it's nowadays built on top of permissively licensed free software. Its not just a difference of opinion and its not about "selling" the software. Red hat happens to sell lots of free software.

Red Hat is an anomaly, not the norm. https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/13/please-dont-tell-me-you-wa...
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