I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today • Hacker News Board

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#301

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

_pgmf wrote: post #286

scarface74 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don’t think I would want to work for a company full of people hired via that process. I’ve met too many smart people(tm) who spend more time arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of pin than they spend figuring out how they can ship software faster/better/profitably.

I don't understand why you feel it's necessary to share your personal justifications (rationalizations), other than you're trying to normalize your own mediocrity. Which, by definition, already is normal.

In the real world, where your job as a software engineer is to translate business requirements into working systems, algorithms are of little value when solving problems can involve a combination of knowing how to ask the right questions, knowing the underlying architecture, knowing the industry/ecosystem well enough to know when to build versus when to find someone else to do the “undifferentiated heavy lifting”, etc.

But if in your own words “you studied for an interview”, it’s not exactly showing that you have a special skillset if all someone has to do is study for a month.

If you’re an experienced software engineer and companies aren’t beating down your door and you’re still randomly applying for jobs and jumping through the same hoops as someone just graduating from college - you’re doing it wrong.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#302

Post by pault » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

aianus wrote: post #287

pault wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the problem is that we've interviewed dozens of applicants and none of them have been able to pass the sniff test. We are setting the bar pretty low, but the average skill level of the people we've had access to is shocking. There just isn't a supply of good developers for companies that aren't FAANGs or unicorns. And before anyone says we aren't paying enough, or we are being unfair, the reason these int…

Could you not hire someone smart who doesn't already know react/redux and teach it to them? Or give them a couple of weeks to do some tutorials? I knew almost zero about web dev (I had been a decent C++/Java/Scala backend programmer) when I was hired to work in a web dev role -- I spent the first two weeks doing RoR tutorials on the internet and was just as productive as anyone else a couple of months after that.

This is what we've resigned ourselves to, but it's very expensive. We're building crud apps, not doing cutting edge research, so I assumed we would be able to find someone that is already up to speed on the language and frameworks. You also have to factor in the cost of senior developer time spent coaching, the lost productivity, and the code quality suffering in the meantime.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#303

Post by danmg » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

k_sze wrote: post #177

danmg wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trade union perhaps.

Is IEEE currently the closest thing we have to a trade union?

No. They're a professional and standards organization. They are very much supported by large industry.

The teamsters are a trade union.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#304

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

holtalanm wrote: post #296

threwawasy1228 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean it to be insulting or to imply that there are not talented people in the Midwest. What I mean is that if you look to places like Louisville, KY for just one example, or Dayton, OH and look at the type of pay that is being offered there, it is vastly below the coasts. Even adjusted for cost of living and other expenses, many cities across the midwest pay below what is a reasonable market value, and natur…

i'm not sure why location has anything to do with code quality. imo, it doesn't.

[deleted]

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#305

Post by ubercow13 » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #251

scottLobster wrote: post #12

In a few months I'm going to be sniffing around for embedded software engineering positions (c on microcontrollers, DSP, maybe even some PCB or FPGA design). I'm still buying a copy of cracking the coding interview and doing leetcode in the weeks leading up to applying for precisely this reason. It's dumb but I'm not going to give up an otherwise promising opportunity in protest, although in the interview I might pol…

I interview A LOT of candidates. Don't bother with books about how to get a job. You're wasting your time. Instead, spend more time with books about hiring. How to run an interview, what to look for, ect. The reality is that companies mostly want to hire someone who can do the job and behave in a team. (There are some exceptions, but you probably don't want to work there.) At the end of the day, doing lots of leetcod…

You are still asking the leetcode question, and no matter how fairly you explain it the candidate who practised those questions will probably do better.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#306

Post by wippler » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #285

pault wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

Entrepreneurial engineer here... If I ever hire an engineer for my business -- I hope it'd be someone I've already worked with and know -- but if it had to be someone random, I'd pursue this method: 1) Solicit Resumes 2) Pick N candidates 3) Phone screen to make sure they aren't complete assholes 4) Stack rank & pop top candidate 5) Pay them to develop a feature on contract 6) If satisfied, repeat step 5 until ready…

Just to provide an alternate perspective here, this seems to tilt the incentives towards people that are not working already. I wonder how many folks have time to take a week or more off from their current job to participate in this exercise. I understand this is paid but its still a huge risk that candidates would be taking.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#307

Post by pault » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

naveen99 wrote: post #299

pault wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

For loop syntax is unnecessarily complex when you first encounter it. A simple if then control flow is much easier to understand and is how it’s done in assembly anyway. Unfortunately he used both. Maybe an opportunity to teach him about goto and labels...

When you first encounter it sure. After you've been writing code for more than a few months I would expect you to have mastered it. If you don't understand the fundamental behavior of a for loop after ten years of professional experience, something is very wrong.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#308

Post by eanzenberg » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #285

pault wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

Entrepreneurial engineer here... If I ever hire an engineer for my business -- I hope it'd be someone I've already worked with and know -- but if it had to be someone random, I'd pursue this method: 1) Solicit Resumes 2) Pick N candidates 3) Phone screen to make sure they aren't complete assholes 4) Stack rank & pop top candidate 5) Pay them to develop a feature on contract 6) If satisfied, repeat step 5 until ready…

This is subtle age discrimination. At some age, lets say 28, there’s a cliff drop-off of people who’d be willing or able to do contract work.

“Man”-up, and fire fte early if needed.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#309

Post by pault » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

rectaway wrote: post #291

pault wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They usually answer confidently right away. It's one thing if you're nervous in interviews, it's another if someone asks you a novice-level question about your area of expertise and you give an answer that is objectively wrong.

Judging by your posts in this thread, have you considered the problem might be that you (and many other companies) hire people based on their ability to answer theoretical questions (which also happens to be while under a lot of pressure), rather than their ability to code? I'd like to think there are plenty of candidates that have open source projects that showcase their coding skills, or that have made impressive s…

It's not really a theoretical question though. It's a very concrete example of the most common operation you would need to perform in a front end developer role. And none of the applicants we've seen have side projects or code on github. If you know of a method to ascertain someone's ability to code in a professional environment in a one hour interview, I'm all ears!

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#310

Post by conanbatt » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

This math doesn't check out: a false negative allows a follow-up false positive. And without that effect, you also have that each one costs thousands of dollars.