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I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

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Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#241

Post by cloverich »

tomp wrote: post #103
caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

Everything you say sounds extremely reasonable... but still, there are plenty of stories (mostly online, so they might not actually be true) of people hiring a person that aces (mostly non-technical) interviews only to show absolutely 0 actual technical skills on the job.

The problem with non-coding interview's is its very dependent on the interviewer to determine their capacity, and _many_ people are bad at that. I think if you are good at it, its pretty easy to tell (like < 5 minutes) if someone can do the job. But I've seen very poor candidates get past this screen many times, even when screened by people I otherwise trust. So I know its not a common skill.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#242

Post by asdffdsa »

jstanley wrote: post #131
skrebbel wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a trick question. Trick questions are bad because they test interviewing skill and not programming skill. It's a trick question because you want the interviewee to answer something different (I don't know) than what you're asking them to answer. Confident applicants might feel up to saying they don't know, but nervous people who are very self conscious in an interview setting may respond completely differently…

It's not quite the same as a trick question (which I agree you should avoid). He's not looking for the interviewee to say "I don't know" to any particular question. The correct answer is a perfectly acceptable answer too. The unacceptable answer is to make up bullshit, which is precisely what he's trying to filter out.

Except that some interviewers say that when they hear "I don't know" it's a sign that the interviewee gives up easily and extrapolates that they will give up easily when they encounter problems while working. The point is that as an interviewee you're supposed to "know" an unfair amount of knowledge and have incredible spontaneous algorithmic skills to boot (the interviewer picks 1 question and has the answer while the interviewee anticipates and is expected to competently answer the set of all possible questions). What ends up happening is everyone crams for interviews by rote memorizing common system design and coding questions. From the interviewee's side it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario when OP asks his trick question. This is similar to hazing where initiates are unsure of the correct way to conduct themselves because they are being judged by some vague, perhaps intentionally withheld ideal, standard, or cultural archetype. I'd imagine disenfranchised groups would disproportionately 'fail' this question, as they are already insecure of their belonging in tech culture

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#243

Post by gwbas1c »

I once was in the interviewer seat in a similar situation.

We (my company) were interviewing a DBA. He listed C# on his resume. We develop C#, so I was brought in to evaluate his C#.

He flat out refused to answer my questions.

(In general, if you don't want to work in XYZ, or don't want to be asked XYZ in an interview, don't list it on your resume. That's why I don't list Installshield and Visual Source Safe, even though I've done them and can do them.)

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#244

Post by e40 »

pault wrote: post #205
caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

So, the developer is overconfident. Have you tried coaching this person into understanding this? I feel that is part of good management.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#245

Post by SkyBelow »

pault wrote: post #233
sokoloff wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this person doing (valuable) work that would even require hiring a replacement? If not, fire them. If so, lobby to secure a backfill and then fire them.

The crux of the problem is that we've interviewed dozens of applicants and none of them have been able to pass the sniff test. We are setting the bar pretty low, but the average skill level of the people we've had access to is shocking. There just isn't a supply of good developers for companies that aren't FAANGs or unicorns. And before anyone says we aren't paying enough, or we are being unfair, the reason these int…

>There just isn't a supply of good developers for companies that aren't FAANGs or unicorns.

...at the salary you are offering.

I see many people hiring adjusting for cost of living but not adjusting for the place being less desirable to live. Also, given the reputation of FAANG and similar, working for them is viewed as something of a future investment. That is a benefit your company likely cannot offer. So even if everything else was on par with a FAANG in terms of pay, benefits, and working conditions, ideally you would have to pay a slight bit more to make up for the difference. Granted, the market is never that rationally acting in any individual case.

Having seen numerous IT managers having trouble hiring, the most common shared issue is too little pay.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#246

Post by icedchai »

bionsystem wrote: post #149
icedchai wrote: post #36

Good DevOps engineers are software engineers that can also do infrastructure work. They should be able to code. Unfortunately, many are "cloud sysadmins", for lack of a better term.

I don't do code, though I'm sure you would like me on your team :) (BTW I have the exact opposite opinion, I think devs should stick to code and not try to setup infrastructure for themselves)

Can you write shell scripts?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#247

Post by SkyBelow »

libria wrote: post #80
scottLobster wrote: post #12

In a few months I'm going to be sniffing around for embedded software engineering positions (c on microcontrollers, DSP, maybe even some PCB or FPGA design). I'm still buying a copy of cracking the coding interview and doing leetcode in the weeks leading up to applying for precisely this reason. It's dumb but I'm not going to give up an otherwise promising opportunity in protest, although in the interview I might pol…

> although in the interview I might politely ask (after solving the problem) what relevance it has to the job, just to make the point. I highly advise you don't do this, because I don't consider it polite. Everyone tries to be objective in final review, so don't jab them with something snarky they'll remember about you while discussing your performance. It's an exercise, it's artificial. Can you convert an abstract i…

It is all about phrasing. If you ask it like "I thought this was a X position, doing Y isn't something I expected to be related. I can do it, but I was hoping you could clarify if the expectation was the ability to do X, Y, or both?" you will likely have a far better outcome than if you come off as challenging them.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#248

Post by mangatmodi »

caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

> most people are not that passionate about where they work until they actually work there

I do like coding a lot, but these home tests can never excite me. I have a family. I can't do it after office. In office I want to work honestly on my job. So frustrating!!

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#249

Post by NoodleIncident »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #168
Stronico wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "I don't know" is an accurate answer. The ability to ask meaningful questions is a big part of any programming job. And (in my opinion) harder to learn than any particular technology.

Maybe you could give the critical replies to your comment some consideration. There seem to be many interviewers who abuse their temporary power over candidates by freestyling a psychological excercise, and brag about it in threads like this. In a way forcing the other party to give up with an "I don't know" is humiliating, and graciously allowing this answer doesn't make things better. You'd put yourself above the o…

You can call it whatever you want, but I think if a candidate would be humiliated by saying "I don't know" in an interview, that's a strong negative signal. Saying "IDK" and reading the docs, googling it, or asking for help is at least half of the job.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#250

Post by dcolkitt »

wutbrodo wrote: post #210
caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

I think it's a holdover from hiring more junior candidates: after a few years interviewing and sitting on HCs at Google, I hired for a tiny startup that had tons of trouble sourcing candidates. My interviews at the latter place eventually devolved into basic IQ tests. Simple coding problems are pretty ideal for this, since they also lightly test necessary domain skills. The problem is that this doesn't scale with tal…

> My interviews at the latter place eventually devolved into basic IQ tests... The problem is that this doesn't scale with talent and/or experience.

Industrial psychology has consistently found that IQ is a better predictor of job performance than experience.

The reason being is that intelligence is defined as the ability to acquire knowledge and skills. Intelligent people literally learn faster than others. The skill acquired by a low IQ in five years is often surpassed by a high IQ person with a few months of experience.

[1]https://www.jstor.org/stable/20182140?seq=1#page_scan_tab_co...

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