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I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

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Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#191

Post by scarface74 »

SubuSS wrote: post #119
tomp wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you say sounds extremely reasonable... but still, there are plenty of stories (mostly online, so they might not actually be true) of people hiring a person that aces (mostly non-technical) interviews only to show absolutely 0 actual technical skills on the job.

I agree with the urban legend guess. Yeah it happens, but not as often as you think.

Acing an algorithm type interview has little to do with answering questions like can you translate business problems into working systems? Do you know whether you should be writing this code at all or use a third party solution? Do you know how not to gold plate a solution and ship software? Can you solve a performance issue with a process that may not involve code but involve another part of the stack?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#192

Post by rifung »

Potentially unpopular opinion..

If companies don't have strong enough incentives to change their interview processes, doesn't that kind of imply that it is working for them, at least to a certain extent? At least it doesn't seem to be the case that they are hiring so many bad candidates they are forced to change.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#193

Post by notabee »

namdnay wrote: post #118
cryptozeus wrote: post #7

They can, it depends on the role. Not referring to you but I have never understood why DevOps at many companies can’t program and are just hired to copy paste files. “DevOps is a set of software development practices that combines software development and information technology operations to shorten the systems development life cycle while delivering features, fixes, and updates frequently in close alignment with bus…

I always thought that the whole point of DevOps was to stop having dev and ops and just have engineers who can do it all from A to Z

Specialists still exist in DevOps, and it was never supposed to be a singular role. It's a major holistic cultural change that's intended to integrate dev, ops, and other specialties into a shared sense of ownership of the entire software lifecycle instead of sitting in silos and blaming each other for systemic problems. Turning it into a single role without all the major cultural changes is just yet another hunt for heros and silver bullets.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#194

Post by scarface74 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #108
shepardrtc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they generally do require programming knowledge Yes > probably an algorithm here and there No Even Amazon doesn't ask about algorithms for DevOps. When I interviewed with them for a DevOps position, they asked me to write a Python script to parse logs files. They also asked about various linux commands that you would use to work with those same logs. Pretty relevant. But the interviewer never once asked about algor…

Hm. I spoke with Amazon (AWS) recently (haven't interviewed yet), and they made the express point that if I were to accept an interview that I should brush up on my algos and HackerRank questions because they loved HackerRank and would surely use a series of those-style problems throughout the interview process. My last in-depth interview was a take-home/collaborative project (paid) for a smaller company here in Cana…

I think you are talking about something different. The parent poster was referring to a Devops position. Were you looking at a software engineer position?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#195

Post by Bootvis »

matz1 wrote: post #106
Bootvis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and this wastes time compared to the situation where there is no useless use of leetcode-like tests.

Company use leetcode style because is not useless. it make the interview process more streamlined, scalable and predictable. For the me interviewee, it also make the interview process more streamlined, scalable and predictable. I practice once and I can use it for many other company, thus save my time.

There is no point in streamlining or scaling a process that leads to wrong outcomes.

At the margin, companies will lose out on qualified candidates that have better things to do with their time than practice algorithms and hire unqualified candidates that got lucky with their Leetcode practice.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#196

Post by scaryclam »

fhbdukfrh wrote: post #152
jasonpeacock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had interviews start very positively with such an approach of questions, but then "just to be thorough" I have them code something simple on the whiteboard and they completely fail. Some of them couldn't even get nested for loops to work correctly. If you're hiring someone to write code for you, you need to have them write code in the interview. There's no substitute for it. Obviously, you can improve the experi…

This doesn't Test if they can develop software; this tests if they can diffuse a bomb. Also there's no point in bringing someone in for an interview before they've shown any coding experience. It's a colossal waste of time for everyone, including the candidate

This is something I've found as well.

We give an invite for a phone screen. It's just a chat so both candidate and interviewer can make sure that the job on offer and experience of the candidate match up. It's also a nice time for candidates to get a decent idea of what our company does so they can bow out if it's not really what they're looking for, which is good for everyone.

Then we send a tech test (take home). It's a simple challenge, with a lot of freedom. We give a guide time of ~90 minutes, but also let the candidates know that they can do more or less if they want. We ask the candidates to submit a written response as well, so they can explain if they're happy/unhappy with the test and their submission. Didn't have time to refactor as you wanted? Didn't write as many tests as you would usually do? That's fine, just let us know generally what you'd have done so we can take it into account when looking at it.

Then it's onto the face-to-face interviews etc.

The tech test segment is really enlightening. A lot of the time we can figure out a lot about the candidates ability to create software systems and communication skills just from the test. Most of the time, we spend a non-inconsequential amount of time looking at the test submissions. If a candidate was good enough to write it, we should take the time to really see what they did and review it. Sometimes we get really poor tests back, even from candidates we were enthusiastic about. Other times we get pleasantly surprised, with candidates who phone screened poorly smashing the test and giving a wonderful submission. I think it's immensely important to see what a candidate does with actually writing code. I also think it's important to make sure we see that prior to inviting them in, as they need to take time off of work, get to our offices and prepare for it. And even when we really want to progress with a candidate, the tech test gives us something to talk about to get to know the candidate better, and hopefully have a conversation that allows them to ask us questions as well.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#197

Post by sbov »

kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

Then companies should stop talking about this shortage of qualified software engineers.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#198

Post by nanomonkey »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #150
malvosenior wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. This is accepted blindly as dogma in our industry but in my experience it's only the case if the company is dysfunctional and management is too weak to let poor performers go quickly. Being an effective leader means being able to hire and fire quickly. If you're open and honest about it, you don't have to do as much as much intense ve…

But, at least in California, don't employment laws make the firing process kind of slow and expensive?

California is an at-will work state, which means that either the employee or the company may terminate employment at any time, with or without cause or prior notice.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#199

Post by scarface74 »

Isamu wrote: post #73
scottLobster wrote: post #12

In a few months I'm going to be sniffing around for embedded software engineering positions (c on microcontrollers, DSP, maybe even some PCB or FPGA design). I'm still buying a copy of cracking the coding interview and doing leetcode in the weeks leading up to applying for precisely this reason. It's dumb but I'm not going to give up an otherwise promising opportunity in protest, although in the interview I might pol…

For embedded programming you are more likely to be asked questions that require bit manipulation, shifting, masking, etc. Maybe low-level C, mapping structs to memory locations, etc. Maybe how you might go about implementing hardware interrupt handlers, or how you could put a microcontroller into low-power sleep and then wake up, etc. It is common for embedded software engineers to come from electrical engineering, a…

I interviewed for a position (and got the job) about four years ago for a C#/Angular senior developer and I was suppose to be “speaking my architectural experience into the team”. At the time, the only way I could document 10+ years of development experience was by putting a job I had worked at for a decade doing cross platform C and C++ with a little bit of assembly.

Out of nowhere, after I thought the interview was over, one guy kept drilling me on that type of low level stuff that had nothing to do with the job just to prove how smart he was. I remembered all of it thanks to a decade of dealing with it and too much time on comp.lang.c but it was still off putting.

I’ve since cut all of that stuff off my resume.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#200

Post by jahewson »

rifung wrote: post #192

Potentially unpopular opinion.. If companies don't have strong enough incentives to change their interview processes, doesn't that kind of imply that it is working for them, at least to a certain extent? At least it doesn't seem to be the case that they are hiring so many bad candidates they are forced to change.

Actually, yeah, I think that the current hiring process is pretty good at avoiding false positives. But at the expense of a huge false negative rate. I'm seeing a lot of roles in SF sit open for months (even > 1 year!) - plenty of companies just aren't hiring anybody. The best I can tell is that a lot of engineers looking for jobs are young and relatively inexperienced?
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