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I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

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Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#161

Post by scarface74 »

coleifer wrote: post #135
kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

Yeah, I studied for an interview and it paid off huge. Just treat it like a cs exam and you'll be fine.

But I don’t think I would want to work for a company full of people hired via that process. I’ve met too many smart people(tm) who spend more time arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of pin than they spend figuring out how they can ship software faster/better/profitably.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#162

Post by daveFNbuck »

kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

How does answering tough algorithmic questions avoid false positives for roles that don't require algorithmic skills? I can breeze through an interview like that but I'd be a terrible hire for a role requiring skills in Kubernetes, Docker, AWS, Terraform.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#163

Post by jvreagan »

mondoshawan wrote: post #128
Stronico wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "I don't know" is an accurate answer. The ability to ask meaningful questions is a big part of any programming job. And (in my opinion) harder to learn than any particular technology.

Saying "I don't know" like this in an interview scenario is nearly impossible for most candidates and only serves to humiliate rather than prove their abilities. If you want to see them ask questions, give a half explanation of the problem at hand instead and guide them to ask more detailed technical questions. Be an ally, not an adversary, and you will find talent better than if you push.

You are proving the OPs point: they are looking for people where "I don't know" is acceptable in collaborating with others, not for people where saying "I don't know" is considered a failure or humiliating. If someone is humiliated being asked a question they don't know the answer to, then they aren't a culture fit.

As Jeff Bezos says, the older he gets, the more he realizes he doesn't know.

Most people have no issue with saying "I don't know." I've worked with people that can't say "I don't know" - they are incredibly toxic.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#164

Post by phreack »

Best interviewer I ever had for a development role gave me a sheet detailing a (terrible) high level implementation of a ticketing system, gave me an hour to look at it and then asked me what I thought about it and what I'd do differently. It got us talking for a long while and both of us learned a lot about how the other thought and worked. I still think about it, and found it brilliant. Downside is you can't have an HR clerk do the interview but I think that's actually a positive thing in the long run.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#165

Post by jpeterson »

coleifer wrote: post #135
kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

Yeah, I studied for an interview and it paid off huge. Just treat it like a cs exam and you'll be fine.

That 90%+ of the hiring signal can be projected onto "hours spent on leetcode" is exactly why this process has become a parody of itself.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#166

Post by chucksmash »

mondoshawan wrote: post #122
Stronico wrote: post #110

When interviewing people I usually push until I get the candidate to answer "I don't know" on SOMETHING, just to see if they can do it. Not everyone can, and a lot of people will happily come up with a technical word salad to hide their perfectly understandable ignorance on some obscure technical problem I just came up with. That way you get to hear how they ask technical questions. Asking questions is a valuable (an…

This will easily pitch you into an adversarial position and give you and your company a black eye. Remember: interviews are bidirectional. If I was pushed to the breaking point like this in your interview, I'd walk out without saying a word. You're only going to be selecting candidates who can handle pressure -- not skill or ability with this.

You're already treating it as adversarial if you're thinking of it in terms of your "breaking points" and "walking out without saying a word."

Back in the day I had an interview for a business position where the interviewer's personal printer mysteriously started printing documents part way through. I'd just read "What Does Somebody Have To Do To Get A Job Around Here?" which listed that among other tactics a company might use to see how you handled distractions. I've suspected it was on purpose ever since. Even were it intentional though, it would be more of a gimmicky ploy than an adversarial thing to do.

An interviewer should be able to modulate the difficulty of a question without making you feel uncomfortable.

Also the job isn't done in a vacuum - being able to remain calm when you don't know the answer is an ability all its own. Interviewers shouldn't be creating artificially stressful situations but you've also got to be able to manage your own stress response!

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#167

Post by Balgair »

jasonpeacock wrote: post #104
caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

I've had interviews start very positively with such an approach of questions, but then "just to be thorough" I have them code something simple on the whiteboard and they completely fail. Some of them couldn't even get nested for loops to work correctly. If you're hiring someone to write code for you, you need to have them write code in the interview. There's no substitute for it. Obviously, you can improve the experi…

To be fair, the reddit post was about a DevOps applicant being asked a single dynamic programming questions for the interview.

It's as if you asked an auto repair mechanic about designing involute tooth profiles on fishbone pattern gears in a transmission. Sure, if they could do that, then yes they'll be a great technician, but it has nothing to do with brake jobs and oil changes.

EDIT: Per the responses in the reddit thread, the question was: "So basically it was a variation of the exact change problem (I realized afterwards). You had to validate a string of size n. 1 chunk of 8 characters could have 1 format, 1 chunk of 16 characters another, and 1 chunk of 24 characters another. You essentially had to determine if the string was valid. So in other words, find a combination of these sizes in which the string could be validated. I had 30 minutes."

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#168

Post by UweSchmidt »

Stronico wrote: post #121
skrebbel wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a trick question. Trick questions are bad because they test interviewing skill and not programming skill. It's a trick question because you want the interviewee to answer something different (I don't know) than what you're asking them to answer. Confident applicants might feel up to saying they don't know, but nervous people who are very self conscious in an interview setting may respond completely differently…

Saying "I don't know" is an accurate answer. The ability to ask meaningful questions is a big part of any programming job. And (in my opinion) harder to learn than any particular technology.

Maybe you could give the critical replies to your comment some consideration. There seem to be many interviewers who abuse their temporary power over candidates by freestyling a psychological excercise, and brag about it in threads like this.

In a way forcing the other party to give up with an "I don't know" is humiliating, and graciously allowing this answer doesn't make things better. You'd put yourself above the other person.

Imagine you'd interview someone you truly respect, a luminary of Open Source walks in. How would you go about the interview then?

I think a great interviewer can make the interview an enlightening and wholesome experience for both parties - while easily identifying the exact qualifications and the fit of the candidate.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#169

Post by RijilV »

wool_gather wrote: post #136
skrebbel wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a trick question. Trick questions are bad because they test interviewing skill and not programming skill. It's a trick question because you want the interviewee to answer something different (I don't know) than what you're asking them to answer. Confident applicants might feel up to saying they don't know, but nervous people who are very self conscious in an interview setting may respond completely differently…

You make a fair point, but an interview is not solely about programming skill. It's also about being a co-worker. And the question "what does this person do in X situation", where X is "they don't know the answer to something they need to know'" is highly relevant. So there may be a better way to go about it, but the parent's desire is reasonable.

The deal is when you’re interviewing me we’re _not_ co-workers. You hold all of the cards and decide my fate.

A big part of interviewing candidates well is breaking down that dynamic. There are many ways of doing it - I get up on the whiteboard first and write out my problem, and stay there until they’ve explained themselves and I need to get back to my notes so I don’t forget stuff. I phrase questions like “I need help implementing this function...” or “how are we going to solve this edge case”.

I don’t think either side of a tech interview is easy. The problem is only one side is evaluated.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#170

Post by yoz-y »

malvosenior wrote: post #144
kache_ wrote: post #126

The reason that people still ask algorithmic questions is because they work for avoiding false positives. False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. While algorithmic questions can get many false negatives, they don't get much false positives. What does it mean for a software developer? Spend a few hours a week doing leetcode questions. They're really not that hard.

> False positives are a lot more damaging to a company compared to false negatives. This is accepted blindly as dogma in our industry but in my experience it's only the case if the company is dysfunctional and management is too weak to let poor performers go quickly. Being an effective leader means being able to hire and fire quickly. If you're open and honest about it, you don't have to do as much as much intense ve…

Depending on the country that might not be that easy (in France you have basically 4 months to fire somebody and then you are screwed). Also, you have to include cost of on-boarding.
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