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Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

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Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#161

According to the wikipedia page for the Lisa, Jobs went to the team developing the mac, and changed the focus from a command-line machine to be a cheaper Lisa competitor, releasing the Mac 1 year after the first Lisa. How could Jobs get away with trying to cannibalize the sales from their flagship machine? It seems traitorous if true.

Haha! They've made several movies and written books about this drama. Whether or not it was traitorous depends on who you view as being a traitor first, Steve Jobs or John Sculley. I recommend reading Walter Issacson's book on Steve Jobs, or watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" for a good take on it.

folklore.org is another good source. It is a collection of stories written by the team that created the original Mac (Most stuff written by Andy Hertzfeld)

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#162

According to the wikipedia page for the Lisa, Jobs went to the team developing the mac, and changed the focus from a command-line machine to be a cheaper Lisa competitor, releasing the Mac 1 year after the first Lisa. How could Jobs get away with trying to cannibalize the sales from their flagship machine? It seems traitorous if true.

V1 Jobs was known for being a selfish asshole.

V1 Jobs (post 97) was much the same, but with a bit of humility that allowed him to empathize enough to be able to make successful products.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#163
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember trying to teach someone to use a mouse, and having to move their arm back down onto the table. See, you can't hold it in mid air, you need to slide it across the mousepad. (and in this case it was specifically required, I believe it was a mouse systems mouse with an LED and a patterned metal mousepad)

Those doing customer support for consumers have some of the best stories. In the '80s, I heard one story about a bleeding-edge grandmother who was having troubles operating her newly purchased PC. One of her troubles turned out that she had placed the mouse on the floor and was trying to operate it with her foot. Why would she do that?! The mouse looked a bit like the foot control pedal on her Singer sewing machine :…

I feel like this has somehow passed into the realm of urban legend as I've since heard a few similar stories repeated back to me but I used to work in phone support quite a ways back and we had a recorded call that we used to pass around to all new employees. It was a new computer user trying to figure out how to change the background of a document (I believe it was a web page he was trying to build in FrontPage but it could have been a PowerPoint).

The call went something like this:

[Call center introduction and customer response]

Employee: "So what seems to be the problem, sir?"

Customer: "I can't find where to change the background of my page. I've looked at all the buttons but I don't see a 'background' or 'color' button."

Employee: "I completely understand. Sometimes these types of things seem like they're hidden but it's pretty easy."

Customer: "It can't be that easy. I've been looking for over an hour."

Employee: "Well, it's in a context menu so they're kind of hidden. You can access those by going anywhere on an empty are of the screen with the cursor and then just right click on the mouse. It should pop up a little menu where the cursor is."

Customer: "Ok. Just give me one second. I want to make sure I do this right. I'm going to go get a pencil."

Employee: "Of course, sir. I'll repeat it again when we've done it once so you can make sure you write it down correctly."

Customer: "Thanks." [A few moments of silence] "Ok... so I move the cursor to a spot on the screen... [shoulder brushes receiver as he writes] ...C-L-I-C-K and then the computer will understand that as a command and give me a menu? Is that right?"

Employee: "That's correct. After you right click, you should see a little box pop up next to the cursor with a list of items. One of them will be 'Properties'."

Customer: "Do I have to wait? I did that and nothing has come up yet. How long do I need to wait for this menu to come up?"

Employee: "It should come up right away after you right click. Did you write click on the mouse already?"

Customer: "Yes, I did. I mean... my handwriting is not the greatest but hopefully the computer can still understand it."

The customer had used the pencil to literally write the word "CLICK" on the mouse. He didn't know that the left and right mouse buttons did something different. He thought they were for left-handed or right-handed use.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corundum is also transparent aluminum and it's insanely cheap.

Speaking of which, where's our sapphire phone screens already?

Sapphire is too brittle to be of much use in a phone screen. It would increase scratch resistance but be more prone to breaking than chemically strengthened glass. It works for watches because they can make it thicker to compensate.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#165
post #64
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MacIntosh :) They'll probably program it in "C", and then in the 1990s move on to JAVA, with some software in PERL.

Was C ever really named "C" with the quotes? Was it supposed to be a reference—were "C-style strings" a key innovation of C over BCPL or something?

> Was C ever really named "C" with the quotes?

No, it wasn't, but it gets called that often enough for me to have made a joke about it.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#166
post #112
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MacIntosh :) They'll probably program it in "C", and then in the 1990s move on to JAVA, with some software in PERL.

Apple platforms were mostly developed in Object Pascal and Assembly, until they added support for C and C++, with MPW and Metrowerks compilers. Then it was mostly in C++. Apple platforms never were big C fans.

> Apple platforms never were big C fans.

Ah, but were they "C" fans?

Never mind. My joke apparently went over everyone's head.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I wonder why Apple kept using their processors, it seemed it was more trouble than it was worth

The 68000 and 68010 were 32bit CPUs, released in 1979 and 1982 respectively. Intel didn't have a 32bit x86 CPU until 1985 when it released the 386. At the time though, the 68K was regarded as the best general purpose CPU you could get and was sort of a "default choice" for building any reasonably high performance systems. Unix workstation manufacturers like Sun and SGI originally built their systems on the M68K platf…

I worked on a IIgs at the very beginning of my career, porting a word processor that had originally been developed for the Amiga and subsequently ported to DOS and Mac. Having worked on the Mac previously, I was a bit surprised that the IIgs OS was actually more advanced in some ways. Color, for one, but hierarchical menus are another one that stick in my mind. It was slow and weird, but the IIgs was a remarkably modern update to the already-venerable Apple II series.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I wonder why Apple kept using their processors, it seemed it was more trouble than it was worth

Because the 8088/8086/80286 had their own bugs, and 68K was a better architecture than x86. No segmentation, orthogonal registers and instruction sets, etc. This superiority probably peaked around the 68020, which started losing out to the 80386 the next year, and after that Motorola never quite recovered. The Pentium, which I imagine most here think of as a starting point, was really more of an endpoint in a complex…

Well, yeah, but if you're buying a 32 bit CPU with weird bugs then why bother.

At this point, I'm thinking the x86 memory segmentation sucked less than a 32 bit CPU with no MMU and bugs requiring the compiler to pull the parking brake

I am familiar with how bad it was on the x86 world, but then maybe that explains why Mac OS before X was so bad

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#169

The Lisa was a good machine, but there was one big problem. Motorola had come out with the M68000, but not the MMU for it. 680x0 MMUs were years late, and the first one was terrible. The Lisa had a real OS, and needed an MMU. That had to be built out of smaller parts, which increased the cost enormously. There was also a major bug in the M68000 - instruction backout didn't work. That was fixed in the 68010. But on th…

Small nitpick but the 8086 and 8088 had a 20-bit address space.

Not really. 16 bit addresses with a kludge to get to 20 bits, but not in a straightforward way.

Re: Apple Reveals ‘Lisa’, Its $50M Gamble (1983)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nitpick but the 8086 and 8088 had a 20-bit address space.

Not really. 16 bit addresses with a kludge to get to 20 bits, but not in a straightforward way.

I don't think it matters how it's achieved.
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