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Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

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Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#61
I read the original study. I have a few thoughts. My partner is a physician and I am an AI researcher working in medicine. I think a lot about doctors as machine learning models, and RCT results like loss terms in a complicated objective function.

What is the best learning rate for updating physicians (our models) from the results of RCT's (part of our loss)?

The authors reviewed all articles in three journals from (generally) between 2003-2017. They didn't, afaict (please point me if they did), review the time-to-correction (if any correction has been made). It takes some time before the results of an RCT end up in established practice. I'm actually surprised it's so small in many cases.

It's not like there's a database where the results of every RCT are immediately updated and the physician model is retrained overnight on the new data.

Even if there were, imagine if the learning rate (so to speak) were so high that every discipline immediately changed their published best practices on the basis of a single RCT?

Here's a cautionary paragraph from one of the excellent reversal studies they use:

Several limitations of the study warrant discussion. First, because we enrolled only 26% of eligible patients, our findings must be generalized cautiously. The most frequent reason that patients declined enrollment was a strong preference for one treatment or the other. Since patients' preferences may be associated with treatment outcome, our trial may be vulnerable to selection bias. Participating surgeons may not have referred potentially eligible patients because they were uncomfortable randomly assigning these patients to treatment; this form of selective enrollment may also create bias.26 Second, because the trial was conducted in academic referral centers, the findings should be generalized carefully to community settings. Third, we did not formally assess the fidelity of the physical therapists or surgeons to the standard intervention protocols. Finally, our study was not blinded, since our investigative group did not consider a sham comparison group feasible. [0]

I'm less concerned about RCT to Best Practice time than from Best Practice to Typical Physician Practice time. There is a cascaded model connected to the 'complex RCT loss' and it's discipline published practice down to individual physician treating patients. Compressing the time from RCT to individual physician is fraught with difficulties, but could be improved.

Finally, RCT is the gold standard, but it's not perfect and it doesn't always clearly translate to the individual physician's model of practice. Many best practices weren't established from RCT's either.

And an inconclusive result from an RCT is not the same thing as proving that there's no difference in outcomes, but a proper statistician can chime in there.

[0]https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1301408

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#62

Everyone yelling about how the FDA is corrupt or should only screen for safety are completely ignorant of history and basic facts. Medicine is not like trying out a new coding framework - in some cases, like cancer: i) There is no ability to "try it out for your self" - you are either all in or not ii) There are extreme risks to taking the drug (most cancer drugs are actually somewhat to extreme toxic...just less tox…

>Do they get it wrong? Yes, occasionally. Not frequently. Occasionally. But that also, is science. The FDA follows rigorous statistical procedures, but even p The issue is that there is a huge lack of transparency. When a third of the studies involved in approval of anti-depressants were withheld from the public [0] and even some withheld at the insistence of the FDA [1], what good do low P-values do? Hard to trust t…

Well, current medical research is not really science, more of a sort of office politics with added prestige and financial incentive.

Actually you can read all the papers you want, you have no guarantee that what's on paper is what happened. Academic and industrial misconduct and epidemiological ignorance are so prevalent in the field that it's more akin to a religious cult.

No, unfortunately I'm not being pessimistic. This is also the case for the FDA people. They can't know, even by doing good work and to a very large extent, whether something will prove harmful or useful.

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#64

Everyone yelling about how the FDA is corrupt or should only screen for safety are completely ignorant of history and basic facts. Medicine is not like trying out a new coding framework - in some cases, like cancer: i) There is no ability to "try it out for your self" - you are either all in or not ii) There are extreme risks to taking the drug (most cancer drugs are actually somewhat to extreme toxic...just less tox…

It's always worthwhile to learn the history of an organisation. That tells you a lot about it's culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Food_and_Drug_A...

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#65
The majority of every invention / attempt will be wrong in any human pursuit. Just think, 400 useless apps or pieces of software are probably released DAILY to the itunes store. The only difference is the impact, but its still understandable. What if you had to write software that did the following:

* Fixed a bug in an existing "legacy system", deployed remotely without your knowledge. You have no logs or debug information, but you can speculate on cause and try it in small simulated / test environments (e.g. rodents). By introducing this fix you would also be changing the system in unknown ways.

* You only have a vague idea of how the code in the OS for this system works, your fix doesn't even change the code. Your only mechanism of change is injecting some foreign JS into a webform to cause ripple effects on the system for the user, meanwhile the system is setup to try to stop / avoid such "attacks" and will try to undo your fix if it can be detected by the system's "AI".

* if your fix fails in production for even one user, you may lose millions and potentially go jail, that person may die.

* You get one shot to release it to the public, after go-live it basically has to work or everything was for nothing. There is no "push this fix and everything gets better", even one small change is a complete restart (new molecule == new drug).

* If you accidentally release any information about the users, or lose their data, you lose millions and potentially go to jail.

* This software will take 10 years, a handful of scientists, a lab, some lawyers, lobbying, and a few billion dollars to make.

* Every user using your software will be on an entirely unique stack, processing all kinds of data in tandem with your software, and will not follow directions. Some will even have lots of other bugs in the system that are unrelated to your fix.

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#66
post #44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay hardly anything to the agency -- their fees are a rounding error compared to all your other costs. And while it's valuable for some jobs to have on your resume that you used to work there, so many people have done so over the years that it doesn't raise any salaries; it's merely that for certain regulatory roles it's good to have someone who knows what it's like to receive the filings so you can make them cle…

When employees at the FDA leave and take positions at one of the companies they had a hand in approving something for, at an increased salary. The appearance of impropriety is blatant. Regardless of it actually happening or not it looks terrible. This should never happen

> Regardless of it actually happening or not it looks terrible. This should never happen

I understand the problem you're describing, but consider what you're asking for: people with competence and experience should be barred from taking jobs that require competence and experience? Non-competes have the same problem.

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#67
post #59
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-vax comes from anti-intellectualism, just like your opinion does. Two sides of the same coin. It has nothing to do with "trust in agencies" and everything to do with intellectualism. We live in a society where academics, data, evidence, etc are all maligned. How can you trust in an agency if you aren't willing to trust anyone at all? The cancer is not trust in agencies, it's your culture of anti-intellectualism…

That's not true. Trust is a major issue and is directly responsible for anti vaxxer movement. Major corporations and media outlet have made bending the truth (PR spins etc) a legitimate common place practice. Any talking head you see on television /other media is not genuinely trying to convince you. They are all hired hands which will say whatever it takes to produce the results their employers demand. The amount of…

This is nonsense. The anti vaxxers place far more trust on someone who is known to have falsified data, and committed egregious malpractice.

The anti vaxxers lack of trust in the media has almost nothing to do with what the media may or may not have done to lose trust.

The actual difference is that one side does not have a good explanation for what causes autism, and as a result admits that they don’t have the answers yet, while the other does not have a good explanation as well, but makes up stuff and boasts that they actually do know the answer.

For vulnerable parents who are just looking for some answer, the second side is extremely attractive.

Everything else about lack of trust, and corporate influence, etc is all secondary, and are after the fact justifications.

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#68
post #44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay hardly anything to the agency -- their fees are a rounding error compared to all your other costs. And while it's valuable for some jobs to have on your resume that you used to work there, so many people have done so over the years that it doesn't raise any salaries; it's merely that for certain regulatory roles it's good to have someone who knows what it's like to receive the filings so you can make them cle…

When employees at the FDA leave and take positions at one of the companies they had a hand in approving something for, at an increased salary. The appearance of impropriety is blatant. Regardless of it actually happening or not it looks terrible. This should never happen

I am not in this field, but I guess that as an employee at the FDA you approve drugs for all the big pharma companies, which aside from the FDA are the major employers that value their skillset. It may be that if you prohibit FDA employees to transition to one of the big pharma companies, you're telling them that they can either work at the FDA forever or have to leave their field

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#69
Most comments here are only focusing on medical devices; this is about the practice of medicine, not shitty companies!

In dentistry/endodontics it was believed for a long time that installing a post helped keep a crown and tooth intact for longer. But long term studies showed posts can actually reduce longevity. In another case, a study showed that a common type of knee surgery for pain is actually less helpful than a placebo surgery.

The overarching problem is that it's (currently) very hard to evaluate the real effect of practicing medicine on large swaths of the population, and then using those results to change what doctors do. By getting doctors into a continuous improvement cycle, we could identify costly, useless practices, and improve health.

Re: Nearly 400 medical devices, procedures and practices found ineffective in study

#70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were never going to be convinced otherwise by a rational argument. You've literally dismissed the credibility of the American government and the entire field of medicine in a single comment.

Of course I did. After watching the govt and the FDA in action for 5 decades, detassling corn for Monsanto, watching Monsanto sue farmers into submission, seeing increased rates of cancer autism and other issues. Being told everything is ok. Then I travel the world eating food in other countries and notice the difference in my health. I see the cancer rates in Africa. You say I am uneducated and stupid. I say I have…

No one has said everything is ok.

Just by claiming we are being told “everything is ok” you are showing the absolute lies and false straw men and disingenuousness that is at the centre of the anti vax movement.

Somehow you don’t apply even close to the same standards to the anti vax side, where the only evidence is proven to have been falsified.

Also, Anti vaxxers claim they are sick of experts, yet are unwilling to show even the slightest bit of curiosity. Have they seen any iron lungs lately? Maybe they should go talk to their grandparents about the scourge of polio, and how Salk and Sabin were heroes in their time because of their efforts in making the polio vaccine possible.

You don’t even need to go that far in history. Just read current events about measles, and how it’s popping up in precisely the pockets of the US where the anti vaccination movements are strongest, whether it’s religious nutjobs in Texas and Brooklyn, or Hollywood hippie nutjobs in California.

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