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Introducing a new HTML element – welcome

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Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#101

Post by TeMPOraL »

geezerjay wrote: post #90
richthegeek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if nothing else it's shockingly bad semantics. If Android called them Turds, would that be any better or worse semantically?

A "toast" means a few words of salutation. That's the purpose of the Toast UI element. A user requests an action, the action returns a successful response, the user receives a message consisting of a few words announcing the success. Just because you are oblivious to the concept it doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need to learn something before blindly asserting that stuff you don't know and are not familiar…

The connotations of "toast" as salutation are even worse here; hardly anything is similar between giving a toast and a transient message (that's in practice usually about failure, not success) showing up at the bottom of the screen.

Out of all the reasons why they could've named it "Toast", the most reasonable one to me would be "because it's another kind of a pop-up notification, and the phrase 'pop-up notification' is already taken".

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#103

Post by jakelazaroff »

scarface74 wrote: post #99
jakelazaroff wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North America is about the only significant market where iOS has a ton of market share, and the world is not North America. If you're targeting Europe, iOS has only 25% [1]. Not sure why you said Japan instead of Asia, but iOS market share there is less than 15%; even worse than it is worldwide [2]. People don't have their browser choices etched in stone, and Google's services are a powerful form of persuasion. If th…

Because “Asia” includes a lot of poorer countries. People go where the money is. http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/all/japan And that still doesn’t negate my other point, if you exclude iOS, you miss the most affluent users. Who do you think is the most profitable market segment? People buying $50 Android phones or people buying $700 iPhones? Apple doesn’t have to “stop” Google. If Apple doesn’t support…

> And that still doesn’t negate my other point, if you exclude iOS, you miss the most affluent users. Who do you think is the most profitable market segment? People buying $50 Android phones or people buying $700 iPhones?

If your service is free and you monetize by selling users' data, they're all the same. You don't have to sell things to your users to make money. Just look at Google!

> Again, if I’m writing a website for the US, why do I care about the worldwide market share?

Again, the world is not the US. If I'm making a website for Europe or China [1] or South Korea [2] or Vietnam [3], why do I care about the US or Japan market share?

[1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china

[2] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/south-korea

[3] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/vietnam

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#104

Post by TeMPOraL »

zaarn wrote: post #65
delta1 wrote: post #17

From the chromium forum: "Intent to Implement: Toast UI element" https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/m/#!msg/blink...

>Firefox: No public signals >Edge: No public signals >Safari: No public signals >Web developers: Positive (previously expressed privately; we've encouraged them to make their interest public on the WICG thread) So basically, nobody at Google talked to anyone about this, asked only google engineers and then pushed those mentioned google engineers to make postive comments in the standards thread? And none of the other…

The new reality, what people were talking about for a while now. Google owns the web now, they do whatever they want with it - and what they want is primarily improving their advertising revenue.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#105

Post by packet_nerd »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #25
moreira wrote: post #13

The person writing this has to repeat frequently that they're OK with the element; it's quite funny how hard they try not to upset people. But their view of the situation is completely correct; just because this one feature might be useful (heck, when Microsoft dumped XMLHttpRequest on us that was incredible too), doesn't change the fact that we're now living in a web where Google does whatever it wants, adds whateve…

There is a difference though: when Firefox was launched, it was still possible to develop a browser from scratch (like Opera was doing back then), and hence lively competition. Nowadays, with WHATWG HTML's feature creep (the HTML "living standard" spec alone weighing in at 1250 pages and 13.3 MB as a PDF, plus tens of CSS specs all over the place, and JavaScript a moving target), that's infeasible for even a nation-s…

I keep seeing this come up, that it's practically impossible to write a brand new browser. This got me thinking, what would it take to make a better browser?

A browser is something that 1 out of every 2 people on earth [1] use frequently. That's a lot of people! All developers in the world use a browser. Lots of them really believe in open software. Some are 10x developers. A certain percentage are literal geniuses. Exactly one is the smartest developer alive today. I get that it's hard, but smart people mobilized at global scale hard?

Starting from scratch today developers would have better tools, modern languages, and a hindsight view of what worked and what didn't in previous browsers to work with. Wouldn't that make it somewhat easier?

Say the average person loads 10 websites per day, and a less optimized browser requires 100ms more to load each page. That's 415 million hours wasted per year. Say the average person makes $4 an hour, that's 1.6 billion dollars wasted!

If every browser user donated 50 cents, that would be 2 billion dollars. Would that be enough? There are 50 people worth more than 17 billion [2], would one of them bankrolling a new browser be enough? What would it take?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/richest-people-world-billion...

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#106

Post by zaarn »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #104
zaarn wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Firefox: No public signals >Edge: No public signals >Safari: No public signals >Web developers: Positive (previously expressed privately; we've encouraged them to make their interest public on the WICG thread) So basically, nobody at Google talked to anyone about this, asked only google engineers and then pushed those mentioned google engineers to make postive comments in the standards thread? And none of the other…

The new reality, what people were talking about for a while now. Google owns the web now, they do whatever they want with it - and what they want is primarily improving their advertising revenue.

Every time I mention that Chrome is the new IE, people on HN keep saying that it is not true because IE was bad and Chrome is good.

Have these people and the google developers behind Chrome considerd that maybe they are the baddies?

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#107

Post by wlesieutre »

sovande wrote: post #77
JoshTriplett wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What aspect of the Firefox UI bothers you?

Not the OP, but I'll chip in with my $.02. I really want to like Firefox, but everything UI feels wrong (on macOS). From tabs, where the close button is on the wrong side (right) and if you click the + button to open a new tab the cursor ends up over the new tab, not over the + button so you can click again to open a new tab. The whole UI looks and feels non-native. Pressing ESC in full screen mode does not bring the…

The other one that bugs me the most is lack of bouncy overscroll with my trackpad. Being used to that in the rest of the OS, it feels very jarring when you scroll up to the top of a page and it abruptly jerks to a stop.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#108

Post by giancarlostoro »

sovande wrote: post #77
JoshTriplett wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What aspect of the Firefox UI bothers you?

Not the OP, but I'll chip in with my $.02. I really want to like Firefox, but everything UI feels wrong (on macOS). From tabs, where the close button is on the wrong side (right) and if you click the + button to open a new tab the cursor ends up over the new tab, not over the + button so you can click again to open a new tab. The whole UI looks and feels non-native. Pressing ESC in full screen mode does not bring the…

> and if you click the + button to open a new tab the cursor ends up over the new tab, not over the + button so you can click again to open a new tab.

Same experience for me on Chrome on macOS too, so... You sure you didn't change those defaults somehow?

I usually open new tabs with Command + t or Control + t on Linux / Windows.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#109

Post by Crinus »

zimbatm wrote: post #78
Crinus wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think it is impossible, Firefox alone has rewritten several of its major components at least once. I see it more as a self-fulfilling prophecy and a constant stream of FUD from naysayers whenever such a thing is merely suggested (with popular topics being that it will never be finished, it will not be secure, if mozilla needs $500m/year how mere humans will ever be able to do it, etc). I think that a lot of…

This seems like a really strange position to fight over. OP is mainly complaining about the constant flux of the spec. At the time were KHTML was being implemented there weren't new features being released every week like we have now. In every aspect of the browser. As a single developer it is impossible to implement a browser that is compatible with today's websites.

Not as a single developer, but i'm certain a team of developers can do it even without having some big corporation behind them.

Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>

#110

Post by SonnyWortzik »

dccoolgai wrote: post #83
giancarlostoro wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been repeating the Chrome is the new IE meme for the last few years. I even had a boss that only cared about our code working on Chrome and would lose it when I was demoing / developing from FireFox. I only ever demoed in Chrome just to feed that illusion that I was adhering to Chrome but I honestly dont see anything special or better and I still made sure it behaved and worked the same in both. I know people…

I don't really agree with the "Chrome is the new IE" sentiment. They participate in the Web Standards process the same as anyone else. That their voice has different gravity in the process due to the fact that they are often the ones pushing the standards forward isn't something they should be compared to IE for. Devs old enough to recall the halcyon days of IE know it was quite different...

sure, but Chrome has the power of Google behind it and that makes the browser more attractive because users feel that if the browser comes from the search engine company they already use then it must be compatible with everything they do online. This is a perception which gives Chrome an advantage over other browsers.

It's a bit of a monopoly that Google has on the browser market and so now they have leverage over what gets approved and implemented in those browsers.

Since most people use Chrome then other browsers are forced to follow suit with compatibility.

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