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Too much money and too few places to invest it

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Re: Too much money and too few places to invest it

#101
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely why I’m a big fan of tariffs and America-first foreign policy. We need a way to restore manufacturing industry to the US, the loss of which played a large role in the erosion of the middle class. Protecting manufacturing and factory jobs used to be a selling point for Democrats but things have been a little turned upside down lately.

If only tariffs caused manufacturing facilities to return to the USA. They don't, though. Here's a great map of the net negative effects tariffs have on the state of your choosing: https://www.uschamber.com/tariffs

There's something wrong with the data at that URL - the data, not the web site which is really attractive and responsive.

The first two states checked out were funky. That there are $659M of wireless phone exports from Calif to China doesn't pass the smell test. It's an incredible claim requiring incredible proof but there's nothing there despite the state being colored in as suffering Extremely Significant Damage. Another state, Florida, gets off more easily and only suffers Very Significant Damage. Drilling down it turns out the goods being tariffed aren't good at all: The tariffed items are literally scrap gold jewelry and scrap metals.

California's stealthy cellphone export I'm pretty sure don't exist. I'd argue that Florida's scrap exports are resources better kept in country as feedstock to help spur on-shore manufacturing.

I'm going out on a limb and expect the remaining 48 states are showing tariffs on bulk minerals, ag products, trash, and make-believe products. Tariffs on these items are positives insofar as they keep input costs low for domestic producers.

Re: Too much money and too few places to invest it

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you have it backwards. Everything produced is sold at its clearing price. If everyone has half as much money, then the price gets cut in half. Likewise, if the number of goods/services produced is doubled, the price of everything gets cut in half. A little bit of a simplification, but that's generally how it works. Money is not wealth. It's how we measure it. Real wealth is goods/services. And the only way t…

What you just said completely defies the laws of supply and demand. Companies don't just overproduce and accept a loss on their goods and services [0]. If everyone has half as much money then the supply gets cut in half. Likewise the supply will only be doubled if everyone has twice as much money. What you might be talking about is how economies of scale result in increased productivity but your rule of thumb is a pr…

Who said anything about accepting a loss on their goods/services? Capital investments allow them to produce at lower costs, which lets them offer goods/services at lower prices and still profit.

>>If everyone has half as much money then the supply gets cut in half.

No, money is not wealth. If everyone had half as much money, each unit of that money would double in value.

>>Likewise the supply will only be doubled if everyone has twice as much money.

If we expanded by the money supply 20X, we wouldn't get 20X more production. Money is not valuable in and of itself. It's only a claim on the real goods produced, and each unit will adjust in value based on how many currency units there are relative to real goods produced.

The limiting factor in the value of money is the number of goods/services that the economy is capable of producing. And that capability can only be improved with capital investments.

Re: Too much money and too few places to invest it

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital isn't "essentially automation" in general. It includes a lot of other things like land and art and government bonds. If you have a job which can be automated at a cost equivalent to a $10/hour wage, it doesn't get automated when the wage is $9 and does when it's $11. The money doesn't inherently come at the cost of some other automation, it may (and if the other automation is profitable, more likely does) com…

I'm referring to 'capital' in the economic sense, not financial sense. Here's the Wikipedia definition: >>In economics, capital consists of an asset that can enhance one's power to perform economically useful work. For example, in a fundamental sense a stone or an arrow is capital for a caveman who can use it as a hunting instrument, while roads are capital for inhabitants of a city. and >>Capital is distinct from la…

> I'm referring to 'capital' in the economic sense, not financial sense.

But then your whole argument doesn't work, because it's possible to convert financial capital (e.g. land holdings or corporate shares) into economic capital (automation) by selling it and using the money to buy machines. The machines don't have to be diverted from some other use, they can be created when they wouldn't otherwise have existed.

> If the business has to pay $11 instead of $10, that extra $1 represents more resources being expended on accomplishing that task, which leaves less resources for other things.

You're assuming that money directly represents current-day resource allocation with a lack of flexibility.

Suppose there is a 25 year old guy who builds machines, gets paid a lot to do it, and currently works 40 hour weeks. If you want more machines, he has to put in more labor and you have to pay him enough for that. When you decide to do it, he instead works 60 hour weeks and gets paid even more, but only saves the money to put his kids through college or have a more secure retirement some decades in the future, or uses it to buy other labor instead of other capital.

You spent money, but that isn't an economic resource, it's a financial one. The person spending the economic resource is the person making the machines, and that isn't being reallocated from making other machines, it's being reallocated from going bowling and watching Netflix.

> That's an overly optimistic and unsupported assumption. The profitability of holding real estate will not go down relative to investing in manufacturing as a result of manufacturing costs increasing.

But that's exactly what you're arguing. You're currently making revenue equivalent to $15/hour on labor cost of $9/hour. You could make the $15/hour on automation cost of $10/hour instead if the labor cost rises to $11, and you will, because you still want the $15 which is enough more than $10 to be worth your investment.

The financial capital to pay for that has to come from somewhere, so it does, and demand for competing investments like real estate declines because the investors have to use more of their profits to pay for automation instead of having them to use for land speculation.

Re: Too much money and too few places to invest it

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to 'capital' in the economic sense, not financial sense. Here's the Wikipedia definition: >>In economics, capital consists of an asset that can enhance one's power to perform economically useful work. For example, in a fundamental sense a stone or an arrow is capital for a caveman who can use it as a hunting instrument, while roads are capital for inhabitants of a city. and >>Capital is distinct from la…

> I'm referring to 'capital' in the economic sense, not financial sense. But then your whole argument doesn't work, because it's possible to convert financial capital (e.g. land holdings or corporate shares) into economic capital (automation) by selling it and using the money to buy machines. The machines don't have to be diverted from some other use, they can be created when they wouldn't otherwise have existed. > I…

>>The machines don't have to be diverted from some other use, they can be created when they wouldn't otherwise have existed.

Of course, that's capital formation. You're not going to get more capital formation as a result of artificially raising manufacturing costs.

>>You're assuming that money directly represents current-day resource allocation with a lack of flexibility.

I don't understand what you mean and how it relates to my point.

>>But that's exactly what you're arguing. You're currently making revenue equivalent to $15/hour on labor cost of $9/hour. You could make the $15/hour on automation cost of $10/hour instead if the labor cost rises to $11, and you will, because you still want the $15 which is enough more than $10 to be worth your investment.

If my profit margin goes down, it's possible I close shop and invest the financial capital in real estate. Making manufacturing cost more does not cause more to be spent on manufacturing.

Let's imagine for a moment that all capital was automation capital, and that the only kind of investment was investment into new automation machinery. Will you acknowledge that in this scenario, a rise in minimum wage would lead to less output, and less investment into new automation?

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