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Don't Glorify Dropping Out

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Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#31

Post by araneae »

enjo wrote: post #27
dasil003 wrote: post #23

> But there's something to be said for a degree as employability insurance. There's something to be said for going out and learning how to get things done and build a business as well. A college degree is hardly insurance for anything. It's clear this guy doesn't have any actual experience with startups. He rattles off the usual talking points: > startups can be as profitable as a few are, only because the great majo…

Counterpoint: First off, I don't have a college degree. I have something like 102 hours, so I'm a year'ish short. That said, I'm always a bit wary of hiring folks who don't have (at least) a liberal arts education of some kind. I don't really care about the computer science, engineering, physics part of the degree. I care about the part of college that prepares you to learn. I care about the breadth of experience tha…

I'd be wary of hiring a college drop-out simply because college can be a filter for stick-to-it-ness. Only a very few college drop-outs do so because they can do better elsewhere; the majority do it because they've failed. And they don't believe that can get back on their feet.

I came close to dropping out, but I'm really glad I didn't- because managing to come back showed me that effort really matters and that I have the ability to succeed at things I thought were hard as long as I work at it.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#32

Post by krschultz »

dasil003 wrote: post #23

> But there's something to be said for a degree as employability insurance. There's something to be said for going out and learning how to get things done and build a business as well. A college degree is hardly insurance for anything. It's clear this guy doesn't have any actual experience with startups. He rattles off the usual talking points: > startups can be as profitable as a few are, only because the great majo…

If you take away the cost of college, would it ever be a bad idea to go? It is only 4 years (3.5 if you are ambition, but again, ignoring the cost I'd do it in 4 to gain breadth).

Not only was it a really good learning experience, but it was a hell of a lot of fun and I made a lot of life long friends. 4 years seems like a long time to 18 year olds, but it is a very short time looking at it from the perspective of someone who has graduated and is working.

So the issue is cost. I absolutely 100% agree that running up $100k+ of debt on an undergrade degree is insane. The difference in value of the degree is so much less than the difference in cost, you have to go to the cheapest place you can get a quality education. You can do the entire thing for very little money if you work your butt off in high school and pick a school you can get a scholarship to. Or just go in state.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#33

Post by enjo »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #19
watty wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College isn't broken, it's just not for everyone. I don't regret my 4 years one bit, it was the best period of my life. I had some amazing social and educational experiences that I wouldn't have received had I not attended - who knew religion and geology could be so interesting? Most importantly I received a CS degree which helped me transition into the real world and be successful today. You may feel it was a waste…

The point is there's nothing you get from college that you couldn't get for free somewhere else (Internet for info and Industry gatherings for social aspects). College puts it together in a nice, easy to digest package but they vastly over charge for it. The college model is still based around a philosophy from the 1800s when they were the sole providers of information.

I think colleges just do a terrible job of actually saying what they do. The purpose of an undergraduate education isn't the simple transfer of knowledge, it's more about "learning how to learn." The thing I've noticed about the self-educated is that they are absolute experts in the thing(s) that they're really interested. It is rare indeed to meet someone whose intellectual curiosity takes them to the places that a simple undergraduate education will.

In college you were exposed to philosophy, literature, and a host of other things. That self-educated guy generally knows a lot about quantum mechanics, but has never bothered to read a classic novel or has never heard of Kant. All of those things form the basis and experience that allow you to learn from the world around you so much more efficiently.

I don't think college is broken, I just think the expectation that college is somehow a four year skills-training institution is fundamentally flawed.

My viewpoint on this has definitely evolved over the last decade. At 22, fresh from dropping out of college after my junior year, I would have written the same thing. A decade of experience has taught me the value of what I learned in college.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#34

Post by mbyrne »

College is like bundled software. You're buying a basket of goods, some of the items, probably all, are not the best-of-class, but you get an overall value that some people think is worth the cost and time, particularly if they don't think about the time or cost, since there is social validation from everyone else doing it, and it lets them avoid the thought and effort involved with evaluating the alternatives for their lives.

Best way to learn? No, but you'll learn something. College is about being socialized into society. You'll meet people and join networks. You'll have fun, go to parties, and date. You'll be away from home and learn to live on your own. You'll get a certification that will allow you to apply for certain jobs you would otherwise be excluded from. In short, to fit into the role society wants for you.

The people who are supposedly being glorified for dropping out are actually being glorified for dropping out to do something better than the usual thing. And to those comfortable with and benefiting from the status quo, this act of rejection is perceived as a threat to their plans for you.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#35

Post by araneae »

watty wrote: post #28
TomOfTTB wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is there's nothing you get from college that you couldn't get for free somewhere else (Internet for info and Industry gatherings for social aspects). College puts it together in a nice, easy to digest package but they vastly over charge for it. The college model is still based around a philosophy from the 1800s when they were the sole providers of information.

I agree that cost of college is too much - but you're not forced to go to a private or out of state school. In-state colleges are not terribly expensive, especially considering how many scholarships are available. As for getting the same experiences by not going, that's just silly. Sure the information is available online but it's not the same as actively participating in a lecture.

The other thing that isn't the same is the external validation- or failure. Most people who are learning on their own don't have the same hard deadlines and pressure to perform at a particular level. That pressure pushed me to work harder than I ever would have on my own; and that's the case for almost everyone, even autodidacts.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#36

Post by bhudman »

As some one pointed out in the comments, everyone is different. Sure, college may be broken, but I certainly don't regret going to college. I then went to grad school (for ECE) and now I am in school for an MPA (nonprofit studies).

I do not think Peter Thiel is encouraging people to crap on colleges. It all boils down to an individual - people going to college and those that don't - both can make a difference.

As much as I admire entrepreneurs, facebook and myspace do not solve pressing problems (disease, hunger etc). Sure, we admire the founders because they made it, but money is not the end all. I'd be scared to live in a world full of entrepreneurs :).

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#37

Post by rpbertp13 »

metageek wrote: post #15
Aloisius wrote: post #6

Speaking as a high school drop out, I wouldn't recommend it for the vast majority of people. College is useful for the people you meet as much as the education you receive. That said, in Silicon Valley, a few companies on your résumé, a single high profile company and/or a major achievement is more than enough to compensate for a lack of education. Outside of Silicon Valley? Well that's another story.

> Outside of Silicon Valley? Well that's another story. It's the same here in the Boston area. I suspect it'll be the same at most companies with heavy software work.

He probably meant 'Silicon Valley' metonymically.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#38

Post by krschultz »

araneae wrote: post #31
enjo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: First off, I don't have a college degree. I have something like 102 hours, so I'm a year'ish short. That said, I'm always a bit wary of hiring folks who don't have (at least) a liberal arts education of some kind. I don't really care about the computer science, engineering, physics part of the degree. I care about the part of college that prepares you to learn. I care about the breadth of experience tha…

I'd be wary of hiring a college drop-out simply because college can be a filter for stick-to-it-ness. Only a very few college drop-outs do so because they can do better elsewhere; the majority do it because they've failed. And they don't believe that can get back on their feet. I came close to dropping out, but I'm really glad I didn't- because managing to come back showed me that effort really matters and that I hav…

I think the questino of why you dropped out is a huge one.

If you dropped out becuase you wanted to start the next big thing and fail, why didn't you go back? You can go back for the next 7 years and pick up where you left off.

So if you are a college drop out, I am far more inclined to think it was because you couldn't hack it than becuase you tried to go big.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#39

Post by YooLi »

People (here at HN) seem to be relating not needing a college degree to not needing a computer science degree. There is a huge difference though with degrees for pre-med (biology, bio-chem, etc.), electrical engineering, civil engineering, nuclear engineering, etc. You definitely need those degrees if that's the field you are pursuing.

Re: Don't Glorify Dropping Out

#40

Post by beambot »

TomOfTTB wrote: post #19
watty wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College isn't broken, it's just not for everyone. I don't regret my 4 years one bit, it was the best period of my life. I had some amazing social and educational experiences that I wouldn't have received had I not attended - who knew religion and geology could be so interesting? Most importantly I received a CS degree which helped me transition into the real world and be successful today. You may feel it was a waste…

The point is there's nothing you get from college that you couldn't get for free somewhere else (Internet for info and Industry gatherings for social aspects). College puts it together in a nice, easy to digest package but they vastly over charge for it. The college model is still based around a philosophy from the 1800s when they were the sole providers of information.

I have read about the "getting education for free somewhere else," but I don't understand. I have had taken classes from absolute experts in certain fields, met with them personally and picked their brains to understand their way of thinking.

I welcome "continuing education" opportunities that would give me exposure to such varied academic disciplines once again. How would you purport to achieve this?

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