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How to build something that lasts 10k years

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Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#31

Post by onion2k »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #8
onion2k wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanical stability of a drystone wall is amazing, but the political stability of the border it represents is very, very fragile. It won't fall over but someone might knock it down. That's the problem the Long Now clock might have solved - it's been marketed as a symbol of human persistence. People are being persuaded that it's important. We maintain our symbolic icons. That political stability is what might kee…

It's not possible to protect against destruction by human beings over these timescales, irrespective of whether people remember what the artefact means. Any such project can only use engineering to provide assurance that the result should last that long _if_ no-one destroys it.

It's not possible to protect against destruction by human beings over these timescales, irrespective of whether people remember what the artefact means.

I think once something is more than a few hundred years old then humans will automatically try to preserve it unless there's a good reason not to (reuse of scarce resources, ideological issues, etc). The challenge is getting something to last long enough for our innate desire to preserve history to kick in.

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#33

Post by NotPaidToPost »

onion2k wrote: post #31
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not possible to protect against destruction by human beings over these timescales, irrespective of whether people remember what the artefact means. Any such project can only use engineering to provide assurance that the result should last that long _if_ no-one destroys it.

It's not possible to protect against destruction by human beings over these timescales, irrespective of whether people remember what the artefact means. I think once something is more than a few hundred years old then humans will automatically try to preserve it unless there's a good reason not to (reuse of scarce resources, ideological issues, etc). The challenge is getting something to last long enough for our inna…

> once something is more than a few hundred years old then humans will automatically try to preserve it unless there's a good reason not to

This is a very recent development that started circa the 19th century in Europe.

Before that no-one really cared.

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#34

Post by pvaldes »

arethuza wrote: post #25
monsieurbanana wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the wikipedia article about vitrified forts they say the heat actually weakens the structure.

Yeah - I didn't mean to suggest it was a good step - they just seem stupendously mysterious sites (I grew up fairly near one and was always fascinated by it).

There is a simple explanation for finding vitrified rocks in a fort. Throwing lots of burning oil from the top over a rock of the correct type. They probably found some practical uses for nordic petroleum

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#35

Post by notahacker »

kodz4 wrote: post #11
onion2k wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanical stability of a drystone wall is amazing, but the political stability of the border it represents is very, very fragile. It won't fall over but someone might knock it down. That's the problem the Long Now clock might have solved - it's been marketed as a symbol of human persistence. People are being persuaded that it's important. We maintain our symbolic icons. That political stability is what might kee…

I live close to this 1000 year old temple - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brihadisvara_Temple,_Thanjavur... You have to walk through a 100 foot gate of granite just to get in. It blows the mind everytime I walk through at the imagination and ambition to build such a thing. And then inside things are even more breathtaking. It's in daily use for worship and rituals by thousands of people even today. It has seen 8-12 d…

Some beautiful structures have survived through constant maintenance of successive civilizations and faith groups. Others have been abandoned to collapse or razed to the ground to punish the people that built it, to clear space to build something new or simply for useful building material. Even the Parthenon, sufficiently revered by successive civilizations to find itself a Greek temple, Roman temple, church and mosque, was redeployed as a gunpowder store with predictable results.

Carving a temple out of solid basalt is a more reliable way of protecting from the elements and all but the most determined humans (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellora_Caves)

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#36

Post by extrapickles »

jpalomaki wrote: post #23
onion2k wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanical stability of a drystone wall is amazing, but the political stability of the border it represents is very, very fragile. It won't fall over but someone might knock it down. That's the problem the Long Now clock might have solved - it's been marketed as a symbol of human persistence. People are being persuaded that it's important. We maintain our symbolic icons. That political stability is what might kee…

Could you get a space vehicle on a trajectory that brings it close to earth only every 1000 - 10000 years? Add there some mechanism that draws attention and transmits it’s message through radio. Would it be doable to have some primitive electronics that would survive so long?

Space is a pretty hostile environment over those timescales.

Selecting a power source is hard as solar cells almost certainly will not last more than a hundred or two years. Nuclear materials with long half-lives don’t provide much power.

Electronics would just have to be big to avoid radiation damage from being a concern.

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#37

Post by jrootabega »

Causality1 wrote: post #14

This is an admirable project but realistically speaking, six weeks after it's no longer being visited every day some 4channer is going to hike out, break it with a hammer, and then draw dicks on it.

Serious reply: the only way to permanently protect man and man's works from man is a benevolent but forceful, adaptable in means but rigid in purpose, army of Von Neumann AI killbots.

ETA: and blockchain

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#38

Post by kowdermeister »

jpalomaki wrote: post #23
onion2k wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanical stability of a drystone wall is amazing, but the political stability of the border it represents is very, very fragile. It won't fall over but someone might knock it down. That's the problem the Long Now clock might have solved - it's been marketed as a symbol of human persistence. People are being persuaded that it's important. We maintain our symbolic icons. That political stability is what might kee…

Could you get a space vehicle on a trajectory that brings it close to earth only every 1000 - 10000 years? Add there some mechanism that draws attention and transmits it’s message through radio. Would it be doable to have some primitive electronics that would survive so long?

That's a brilliant idea. I think the electronics part is doable, a radio transmitter is a very simple thing. Some metal alloy with sufficient robustness would probably do the job.

We could even build an analog device that could store the messages just like a music box cylinder.

https://www.google.com/search?q=simple+radio+transmitter&tbm...

https://www.google.com/search?q=music+box+cylinder&tbm=isch

Also check out Graveyard orbits for decommissioned satellites where they can stay for millions of years and be our monuments from the 21st century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#39

Post by phito »

vincnetas wrote: post #10

Finland is building nuclear waste storage facility which is planned to last for 100.000 years. There are quite few interesting design decisions to be made taking this lifespan in to account, for example if current civilization will be wiped out, what symbols you should put on a door to discourage someone in future to opening the door. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... https://www.youtube…

This place is a message... and part of a system of messages ...pay attention to it!

Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.

This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here.

What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger.

The danger is in a particular location... it increases towards a center... the center of danger is here... of a particular size and shape, and below us.

The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours.

The danger is to the body, and it can kill.

The form of the danger is an emanation of energy.

The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-time_nuclear_waste_warnin...

Re: How to build something that lasts 10k years

#40

Post by Cthulhu_ »

throwaway66666 wrote: post #28
vincnetas wrote: post #10

Finland is building nuclear waste storage facility which is planned to last for 100.000 years. There are quite few interesting design decisions to be made taking this lifespan in to account, for example if current civilization will be wiped out, what symbols you should put on a door to discourage someone in future to opening the door. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repo... https://www.youtube…

>what symbols you should put on a door to discourage someone in future to opening the door. Vaguely reminds me a bit of the curses egyptians wrote in the entrances of the Pharaoh's tombs. Basically cursing trespassers for life. This is a realer version of that. Deeply interesting.

That's what I was thinking with the "This is not a place of honor" quote - I mean the curses and promises of deadly diseases, seals, etc didn't keep the archeologists out, they only made them more intrigued. Were they able to read the warnings before entering? Not sure if they had decoded the language yet at that time.

Anyway, place a big red button with a "DO NOT PRESS" sign on it and inevitably someone will press it. I think for nuclear waste the best option is to hide it somewhere nobody will ever find it - miles under the earth, like gold mines, then line the tunnels with explosives and seal it off.

Of course, that wouldn't stop a future generation from accidentally drilling into it by accident while looking for gold.

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