Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#181

Post by ZeroGravitas » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 8:02 AM UTC

asark wrote: post #92

DanBC wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TL;DR on "ZOMG we're gonna drown in trash if we don't do something!" is that it was always basically bullshit—we didn't fix it, it was just a made-up problem to begin with. Er, we sent all the trash to other countries, and they dumped it in the ocean.

The made-up part was that running out of landfill space was something to actually worry about. And a lot of what was shipped over was "recycling". :-/

This just sounds like an even more stretched "scientists used to think the globe was cooling" to me. (I've just noticed someone unironically referencing global cooling in another comment)

Most other nations just did a cost benefit calculation and quietly got on with recycling. America, which has lots of space comparatively, also did the same cost benefit calculation, mostly got on with recycling, but with a vocal chorus of detractors whose arguments seems to bizarrely return (across decades!) to what we teach small children not being 100% accurate.

Is this really the level of argument we're looking for in economic topics? Or is using these arguments basically an admission that we've lost and are fighting a desperate retreat using whatever emotionally salient arguments we can muster.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#182

Post by chopin » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #145

devy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The damages has been done. It could take hundreds of years and an order of magnitude's financial resources to clean it up land and underground water pollutions. But the air/ocean/atmosphere/carbon footprints are shared and affecting globally.

We should take a break from games and adtech and save the earth.

There's no money in it.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#183

Post by jlawson » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 11:28 AM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #106

jlawson wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying this, but is there any evidence for it? I'm curious where this comes from. At first estimate we could just Google images of polluted rivers in Asia and Africa and look at the logos on the garbage. From my priors, I'd estimate that the plastics would almost all be from locally-consumed products, simply thrown into the river as is common and accepted in such places. My sense is that a lot of educated…

China tightened up regulations on importing recycling waste last year and Western recycling was hit extremely hard: https://www.wired.com/story/the-worlds-recycling-is-in-chaos... > It has been a year since China jammed the works of recycling programs around the world by essentially shutting down what had been the industry’s biggest market. China’s National Sword policy, enacted in January 2018, banned the import of…

None of this tries to demonstrate that the plastic flowing out of Chinese rivers was originally from the West.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#184

Post by uhhhhhhh » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #160

uhhhhhhh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's true maybe when it comes to atmospheric pollution, but not with plastic waste in rivers and the ocean. A large amount of that is waste exported to those third world countries, especially plastics for recycling.

If that is the case then again, the issue is on the receiving nation. Richer nations are not externalizing their garbage, they're literally paying for it. If the receivers are not doing their job and putting it in the Earth, then that's not just some industrial by-product problem, it's point blank corruption. Also, if it's consumer items in the Ocean, then the issue will be about where most consumers are, and how muc…

>Richer nations are not externalizing their garbage, they're literally paying for it

They are externalizing it, selling what they can, paying others to take it but not paying the true costs of properly recycling it in the first place.

> If the receivers are not doing their job and putting it in the Earth, then that's not just some industrial by-product problem, it's point blank corruption.

If we know this and continue to sell it to them, are we any less at fault? the answer is no.

>Also, if it's consumer items in the Ocean, then the issue will be about where most consumers are, and how much they pollute, given that the issue might be Asia.

Its thrown away consumer items, which as explained are shipped to asia from western countries as waste.

>But the West obviously has enough of it's problems so it's not like anyone can point fingers really.

everyone sucks, everyone needs to do better. No exceptions.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#185

Post by uhhhhhhh » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #64

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And emits CO2. No more plastic, less CO2 from production and from the waste. And it’s clearly our major crisis of the century.

Sweden (5.1) is very close to the world average (4.9 tCO2/capita/year) in fossil CO2 emissions, so they're doing really well for a developed country. (2017 data from Wikipedia.)

Imagine how much better they could do without such high emitting activities

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#186

Post by Waterluvian » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #155

Waterluvian wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our grocery stores sell disposable plastic bags for 5 cents and reusable fabric bags for a dollar. These fabric bags are so amazing and huge that I bought 15 just to help me move. The concept of a 5 cent reusable plastic bag is a head scratcher.

Fabric bags are worse for the environment than plastic bags, so they cost more, because of the process to make them.

Except I use them hundreds to thousands of times, they carry twice as much and they don't break.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#187

Post by Kluny » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

fouc wrote: post #148

Kluny wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, this is my organization (Surfrider) and we put on a talk to learn about compostables. Two of the others were professionals who run industrial composting facilities. If you want a better source you can check out the 5 Gyres report linked in the article (BAN Report). It shows time-lapse photographs of so-called biodegradable items over time. The term biodegradable is itself problematic - everything is biodegradab…

Might be helpful to classify everything by different levels of biodegradability.

There are many different standards available. They are useful for petrochemical engineers, but not generally for laypeople. If you want to make an environmentally friendly choice, the safest bet is always going to be bring your own dishes.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#188

Post by Kluny » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #164

Kluny wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, this is my organization (Surfrider) and we put on a talk to learn about compostables. Two of the others were professionals who run industrial composting facilities. If you want a better source you can check out the 5 Gyres report linked in the article (BAN Report). It shows time-lapse photographs of so-called biodegradable items over time. The term biodegradable is itself problematic - everything is biodegradab…

I read that something like 50% of all plastic in the ocean is abandoned fishing nets. Also, the UN says we are a decade or so from fishing all saltwater fish to extinction. What do you think about banning the production of plastic fishing nets?

Yes, that's a big target as well. Food containers are a more accessible problem for most people, but we are working with organizations that lobby for improved fishing regulations.

One of the things we do is monthly beach cleanups. While we're cleaning a beach, we'll section off an area and carefully count and categorize the trash we find in that area (such as fishing nets). We share the info with organizations like our local university and department of fisheries and oceans, so that they'll have recent evidence that they can use when asking for regulatory changes.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#189

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

davidy123 wrote: post #14

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few immediate logistical difficulties, from an able-bodied person: 1) If you have a cognitive disability, remembering to bring a straw may be difficult. 2) If you have a mobility disability, you may struggle to wash the straw in a suitably disinfected manner after use. 3) How do you reuse the straw on the go? 4) This(bringing your own straw) is another cost added onto an already economically overburdened populace.

Restaurants already have requirements around those with special needs (including those with babies), requiring them to have a few washable stainless steel straws on hand is not much to ask. Granted, there may be slip-ups, those should be reported.

The problem is that some of the people with limited mobility also have limited ability not to chew on the straw (they can't control their jaws well enough). You chew on a plastic straw, that is not an issue. You bit down on steel...

Those people btw are the ones who most need them, because they typically also have too limited mobility to drink from a cup.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#190

Post by jlawson » Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

jogjayr wrote: post #177

jlawson wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying this, but is there any evidence for it? I'm curious where this comes from. At first estimate we could just Google images of polluted rivers in Asia and Africa and look at the logos on the garbage. From my priors, I'd estimate that the plastics would almost all be from locally-consumed products, simply thrown into the river as is common and accepted in such places. My sense is that a lot of educated…

> People just don't get how callous same cultures are about the environment; it cannot be believed until it's been experienced since it's so far outside of the wealthy Westerner's experience If Mad Men [0] is to be believed, there was plenty of littering in the US in the 1960s.[1] It took many public awareness campaigns by government and private industry, in a country far richer with nearly universal literacy, over m…

There was littering, yes. But in 1959 America you generally wouldn't see:

-Mothers supervising their kids as they defecate on a city sidewalk, or in the garbage bin in a busy train station.

-Dead mules left rotting and bloated in the sun for days right beside busy streets, with drinking water flowing nearby.

-Restaurant owners throwing garbage out the front door of their establishment onto the street right in front of the restaurant.

You're relating what I said to your own experience, which is Mad Men-style "littering". Only once you actually go outside your bubble can you understand that humans can do so much worse - and billions do.

I think to find a Western example you'd have to go back to horse and buggy days at least, and possibly to before widespread plumbing (e.g. late 1800's London cholera epidemics, the Thames literally full of shit).