Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#91

Post by nitwit005 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

ridicter wrote: post #25

I see comments pointing out that the majority of plastic pollution in oceans come from Asia/Africa. This is true, but there are two points worth considering: 1) Whenever you pay cheaply for anything made in any third world country, you're externalizing the societal cost of pollution to that country (and if it gets into the oceans, to everyone). In other words, you're not paying the true cost of that item--economicall…

> Whenever you pay cheaply for anything made in any third world country, you're externalizing the societal cost of pollution to that country

Much of the disposable stuff I've seen here in California were made in the US. The Solo cup company, and its parent Dart Container, are both in the US, for example.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#92

Post by asark » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #67

asark wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the landfill topic, I found this Slate Star Codex post very interesting: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/01/01/what-happened-to-90s-e... I'd been idly wondering about the topic for years—specifically, WTF happened to all those environmental things schools & kids' nature magazines & cartoons had all the students worked up about back in the 90s? Are they fine now? Did it all go poorly so they gave up? You know, save…

> The TL;DR on "ZOMG we're gonna drown in trash if we don't do something!" is that it was always basically bullshit—we didn't fix it, it was just a made-up problem to begin with. Er, we sent all the trash to other countries, and they dumped it in the ocean.

The made-up part was that running out of landfill space was something to actually worry about. And a lot of what was shipped over was "recycling". :-/

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#93

Post by OrgNet » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:07 PM UTC

makerofspoons wrote: post #54

LinuxBender wrote: post #19

Does this mean people will have to refill their prescription medications into the same bottle?

Why can't prescriptions come in recyclable paper boxes, or glass bottles for liquids?

Can you make an air-tight recyclable paper box? So that humidity/etc doesn't get in the pills

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#94

Post by brandon272 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

srj wrote: post #50

sunkenvicar wrote: post #46

For decades I have meticulously washed and sorted my blue bin recyclables. Now they are banning plastics because people on the other side of the world treat their rivers as garbage dumps. I don’t litter. Don’t punish me. I see this as a cynical re-election strategy. The election is in four months and the polls are not looking good for Trudeau. Awash in scandal and forseeing a strong Conservative turnout, he’s trying…

Your blue bin recyclables were shipped to Asia and then dumped into a river. There's no economic sense to plastic recycling. The only viable strategies are to standardize on reuse or promote materials that are recyclable (i.e. aluminum).

Not to mention that plenty of people are not "meticulously washing and sorting" their recyclables and the popular method of single stream recycling is producing contaminated recycling streams filled with trash and non-compliant items.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-era-of-easy-recycli...

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#95

Post by Robotbeat » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #85

Robotbeat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to drink hot liquids with a straw anyway (stirrers are another story). The plastics I'm think of are PLA and PHA. Mainly made of corn, but you could synthesize them from pure chemicals as well. Far more common than these "lobster shell" ones.

Honestly, even in cold liquids, I'd be worried about non-plastic straws getting soggy and/or melting if left long enough. I haven't specifically looked into PLA and PHA much, but a quick google sees PLA being referred to as "too good to be true" and having "misleading biodegradability". I'm not seeing such concerns about PHA, but I've also only spent like a minute looking it up, and I wouldn't be surprised if some mo…

PLA really needs an industrial composter to break down fully, but this is still better than traditional plastics. It's just polymerized lactic acid, which is common and naturally occuring in the human body.

PHA generally breaks down faster in the natural environment (i.e. it's biodegradable, not just compostable) and it has similar properties to PLA.

Straws use an absolutely minimal amount of material. I really don't think concern over agricultural resources is valid for such uses as it is compared to, say, the massive amounts used for biofuels. And of course, it's not as if metals have no resource requirements, either.

A typical straw weighs about .42 grams and thus uses about as much agricultural material as two kernels of corn (about as many calories as two tic tacs). That's not the problem, here. To put that in perspective, the energy in that straw (about 0.005 kilowatt-hours) is less than we just wasted arguing about it online.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#96

Post by rb808 » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

I need bags for a bunch of things and now have to buy plastic bags online. I'd like to buy biodegradable ones, does anyone have any recommendations how to check for bags really will degrade?

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#97

Post by JBReefer » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #96

I need bags for a bunch of things and now have to buy plastic bags online. I'd like to buy biodegradable ones, does anyone have any recommendations how to check for bags really will degrade?

Waxed paper bags

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#98

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #57

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, lets fine them $1000 per river.

I was thinking tariffs and visa quota reductions. No further first world dollars or access until mitigated.

You can't enforce tariffs or visas against a river.

You'd need to apportion the blame to political entities, and then give them some kind of score or grade to decide which ones to punish more harshly based on how much they were contributing.

That score or grade would almost certainly be primarily per capita or it would be meaningless and simply punish larger/ more populous countries.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#99

Post by olejorgenb » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #40

radcon wrote: post #36

Weren't plastic bags created because they have a significantly smaller environmental impact than paper? You need to re-use a paper bag at least 3 times before it's better than using a plastic bag[1]. And let's face it, no one re-uses those flimsy paper bags from grocery stores, but they're becoming the standard wherever plastic is banned. Those "environmentally friendly" re-usable grocery bags aren't much better eith…

It really depends on what you're measuring. Plastic bags are very bad when they end up in rivers or the ocean. But yes, plastic bags might be better on CO2 depending on where they are made and how they are shipped. But paper bags can be made carbon neutral, which is fundamentally impossible with plastic bags.

It's possible to make synthetic petroleum products from CO2, water and electricity, so it's not fundamentally impossible.

Re: Canada Plans to Ban Single-Use Plastics, Joining Growing Global Movement

#100

Post by Kluny » Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #78

Kluny wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biodegradable plastics are not more environmentally friendly than normal ones. Here's some more info about that. https://vancouverisland.surfrider.org/compostable-plastics-1...

... according to a "a student researcher from UVic who assisted" a surfing advocacy organization and some other randos. Yes, litter will still be an issue, and no, you shouldn't just throw compostable things on the beach -- but comparing polymers which will float in the ocean for hundreds of years vs some compressed corn starch is no contest.

Look, this is my organization (Surfrider) and we put on a talk to learn about compostables. Two of the others were professionals who run industrial composting facilities. If you want a better source you can check out the 5 Gyres report linked in the article (BAN Report). It shows time-lapse photographs of so-called biodegradable items over time.

The term biodegradable is itself problematic - everything is biodegradable including normal plastic. That just means that it breaks down into smaller bits that animals mistake for food and starve on.

There are a lot of things wrong with compostable plastic as well. The idea that it's somehow better is greenwashing, and makes people think it's a good enough alternative, so they can stop putting further effort into reducing their consumption. It's still a single use item that's wasting resources.

Compostable plastic isn't recyclable, so when it gets into plastic recycling streams it degrades the quality of the end product. It also isn't going to break down in your backyard green bin - it needs to be subjected to industrial composting processes, and even then it will take much longer than normal kitchen scraps to break down.

A load of plastic contaminated with PLA items and a load of compost contaminated with PLA items will both end up in the landfill because they are worthless.

There just aren't enough advantages, and compostable plastics need to be included in all upcoming plastic bans.