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Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

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Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#151

Post by magduf »

mabbo wrote: post #111
i_am_proteus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some zoos also undertake conservation efforts such as captive breeding and reintroduction. [0] is just one example. I hope bills like this don't swing the pendulum too far and end up hindering conservation. [0] http://www.torontozoo.com/Conservation/captive-breeding.asp

I think a middle ground can be found. While I really love the Toronto zoo, watching their lynx pace back and forth in the cage, digging a path into the ground, that really impacted my impression of zoos generally. Perhaps large[0] cats like that don't belong in small enclosures. [0]Lynx are actually much smaller than I expected, and bobcats even smaller than that. Still, they need a large space to thrive.

I've seen a lynx (mountain lion) close-up too, and they're not small. They're the height of a medium size dog, but far more muscular. They can easily take down a human, and have been known to kill humans (usually women) when very hungry and too close to civilization. Of course, they're not the size of a Siberian tiger; those things are huge.

As for needing a large space to thrive: that would be nice, but they can't really live in the wild in most places any more because stupid humans will kill them. This is the whole reason deer are so overpopulated in many places in the US; lynxes are their normal predators.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#152

Post by detaro »

magduf wrote: post #151
mabbo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a middle ground can be found. While I really love the Toronto zoo, watching their lynx pace back and forth in the cage, digging a path into the ground, that really impacted my impression of zoos generally. Perhaps large[0] cats like that don't belong in small enclosures. [0]Lynx are actually much smaller than I expected, and bobcats even smaller than that. Still, they need a large space to thrive.

I've seen a lynx (mountain lion) close-up too, and they're not small. They're the height of a medium size dog, but far more muscular. They can easily take down a human, and have been known to kill humans (usually women) when very hungry and too close to civilization. Of course, they're not the size of a Siberian tiger; those things are huge. As for needing a large space to thrive: that would be nice, but they can't r…

Mountain lions are pumas, not lynx, and quite a bit bigger.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#153

Post by 0xcafecafe »

Reedx wrote: post #108
gingabriska wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the good reason for not extending it to cow, dog, cat etc...? Where do you draw the line?

That's a fair question. Just think about how many cats and dogs are stuck inside small apartments most of their lives.

Why just getting stuck in apartment or home? Most of the pet dogs here (in the US) are spayed/neutered so they have no reproductive purpose left. They are basically just living toys for the amusement of the owners.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#154

Post by deanCommie »

Gpetrium wrote: post #101

Zoos can serve as an opportunity for people from different demographics to be able to see a small sample of what the world has to offer. It can also help facilitate conservation efforts by allowing people to have direct & indirect interactions with the animals and professionals in the area, which they would not have otherwise. Some people have advised to "Close Zoos and encourage people to see the animal in nature" w…

They CAN.

They usually don't.

First, most zoos end up having to be driven by capitalism (even if they are non-profit), and as such are incentivized to try to game-ify the experience. Many parents and most children don't want to pay money to be lectured to. They want to have FUN.

Therefore, the experience ends up arriving at an awkward intersection between science and commerce, and it can create unhelpful connotations between animal captivity and entertainment.

Second, most people have an inate understanding that a living creature in captivity is wrong, and likely not super beneficial for the creature. So the zoos - both super conservation-focused ones, and brutal cruel entertainment zones alike - have to make an effort to justify and convince the public that actually the animals are well taken care of, are comfortable, and happy, true or not.

This further perpetuates the idea in people's heads that animals exist for our amusement and we can give them a better happier life than the wilderness.

Why is all this a problem? Because childhood memories are formative and significant. These experiences shape us and our understanding of the world. We are in a significant time of species extinction - caused directly by human activity. The amount that people care about this, about deforestation, about habitat loss, directly affects how much they care about voting for policies that either help the situation, or exacerbate it.

I'll reiterate - I think zoos/aquariums CAN be a force of good here and help change many people's minds. But I don't know if overall they are a net good if the majority of the uneducated population just treats them as an entertainment escape and formulates in their head that it's not a big deal if rhinos go extinct as long as we can still see them at zoos.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#155

Post by maxxxxx »

detaro wrote: post #152
magduf wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a lynx (mountain lion) close-up too, and they're not small. They're the height of a medium size dog, but far more muscular. They can easily take down a human, and have been known to kill humans (usually women) when very hungry and too close to civilization. Of course, they're not the size of a Siberian tiger; those things are huge. As for needing a large space to thrive: that would be nice, but they can't r…

Mountain lions are pumas, not lynx, and quite a bit bigger.

Correct. Also called cougar.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#157

Post by isoskeles »

Gpetrium wrote: post #101

Zoos can serve as an opportunity for people from different demographics to be able to see a small sample of what the world has to offer. It can also help facilitate conservation efforts by allowing people to have direct & indirect interactions with the animals and professionals in the area, which they would not have otherwise. Some people have advised to "Close Zoos and encourage people to see the animal in nature" w…

> If society believes that some animals should not be in captivity at all due to moral/practical reasons, it is worth asking: What other technologically driven solutions can be made/used to help people of all demographics experience what it is like to be in front of X animal?

Honestly, I think it's a bit weird to think these problems need to be solved at the same time. If we accept that there is something deeply immoral about holding these animals in captivity, that absolutely and immediately overshadows the problem of, how do we get these animals in front of as many diverse demographics as possible now so they can (we hope) act in favor of conservation?

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#158

Post by DBYCZ »

Gpetrium wrote: post #101

Zoos can serve as an opportunity for people from different demographics to be able to see a small sample of what the world has to offer. It can also help facilitate conservation efforts by allowing people to have direct & indirect interactions with the animals and professionals in the area, which they would not have otherwise. Some people have advised to "Close Zoos and encourage people to see the animal in nature" w…

You can rent a jetski at Treasure Island, FL and see wild dolphins in the bay for the same price as SeaWorld tickets.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#159

Post by ultrarunner »

rafiki6 wrote: post #112
mbostleman wrote: post #55

I get all the problems for the animals and not suggesting that they should continue to endure those problems, but I hate to see the general public's access to nature further curtailed. The mainstream seems to love wild places and wild life as long as it's on Youtube yet they spend the entirety of their own lives in suburbs and retail landscapes with virtually no direct experience with nature. I wonder how many childr…

This is where technology like VR and AR can really take off. We shouldn't have to torture animals any longer to further our own species. We can create beautiful virtual worlds for games that are hyper realistic and fully interactive. We can push our selves to do the same and get rid of zoos. Why can't children go to museums and virtual field trips? Can you imagine something like Planet Earth but fully interactive in…

Everyone I know (see username) visits nature to be in nature. Not just to see it.

Re: Canada to ban keeping whales, dolphins in captivity

#160

Post by zokula »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #119
Reedx wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair question. Just think about how many cats and dogs are stuck inside small apartments most of their lives.

Or on a roof/balcony. Living in Guadalajara, I've wanted to put many dogs out of their misery. Left on the roof as thief-deterrent to go completely crazy. Our treatment of animals (pets, meat) is one of the indicators of how primitive we still are as a civilization... or, god forbid, species.

The fact that we keep animals as pets and use them as meat indicates that we are the superior species and by extension we are the most glorious civilization.
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