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Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

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Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#241

Post by pseudalopex »

soulofmischief wrote: post #147
maxaf wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please forgive me for being unnecessarily obtuse this early on a Monday morning. Where does Apple say that GPL code isn’t allowed on the App Store? I ask entirely out of my selfish need to avoid unpleasant surprises later on.

It's what I've heard rehashed around HN, but afaik the actual policy is more or less as described here: https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/18922 Essentially it works like it should anywhere else: If you don't publish source code and someone complains, you're out. In an ideal world Google Play would hold itself to the same standards. However, the App Store does impart restrictions which are incompatible with GP…

The App Store came after the GPL. Also, Apple could let developers opt out of the restrictions.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#242

Post by ummonk »

izacus wrote: post #181
kortilla wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered those two groups aren’t the same?

I did, but then I'd expect the GPL group to actually comment with the same zeal on Apple articles... but Apple criticism seems very muted in comparison.

The GPL group has given up on Apple, whereas they adopted Android because it was pitched as an open source platform.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#243

Post by kllrnohj »

rjzzleep wrote: post #220
kllrnohj wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists a happy medium, where power users get all the freedom they want but apps are still by default beholden to certain restrictions. And this is orthogonal to a proprietary API. Is this not the happy medium Google is trying to hit? Power users can unlock their bootloader and do whatever they want. This is still officially supported, with vendor blobs officially provided. By default things are restricted to…

That's what I thought when I bought my Sony phone. Except when you unlock it you run a crippled version of the phone. Huawei recently stopped allowing bootloader unlocks. Unlocking the bootloader is becoming increasingly rare. To be honest, ignoring the back and forth between the discussions here, am the only one that doesn't get WHY the firebase library isn't open source? It could just be GPL right? Most of the inte…

> Unlocking the bootloader is becoming increasingly rare.

This is a bit of "you get what you buy" territory. Google's devices have official bootloader unlock capability and always have, with instructions here: https://source.android.com/setup/build/running - already updated for the Pixel 3a & 3a XL even. You take your risks when you buy something that doesn't advertise that.

> Most of the interesting stuff happens in the backend anyway, so what's the issue.

I think most of the interesting stuff on the device is even in Google Play Services and not in the firebase library. I have no idea why the client SDK can't be open source, but how much does that even matter?

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#244

Post by damnyou »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #231
Spivak wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally would consider notifications and the ability to run in the background to be essential but there's a better test which is the reason that this exception exists in the first place. From copyleft.org: > The system library exception is designed to allow copylefted software to link with these libraries when prohibition of that linking would hurt software freedom more than it would hurt proprietary software. T…

That sort of wishy-washy legal foundation is why people are afraid of the GPL.

All law has a certain degree of human judgment involved.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#245

Post by kllrnohj »

black_puppydog wrote: post #224
kllrnohj wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There exists a happy medium, where power users get all the freedom they want but apps are still by default beholden to certain restrictions. And this is orthogonal to a proprietary API. Is this not the happy medium Google is trying to hit? Power users can unlock their bootloader and do whatever they want. This is still officially supported, with vendor blobs officially provided. By default things are restricted to…

For completeness' sake: even power users cannot really do with their devices as they please, if they don't happen to be kernel hackers with a few months' worth of time to spare. If google was trying to hit some sweet spot (I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here any longer) then they would not spout such obviously wrong BS to scare users into submission. Conversations and telegram both put the work…

> even power users cannot really do with their devices as they please, if they don't happen to be kernel hackers with a few months' worth of time to spare.

You don't have to be a kernel hacker to build & flash AOSP. Google has a guide on it: https://source.android.com/setup/build/running

But whether or not you consider this a "power user" or not is obviously less clear cut. How you define "power user" does of course change things. The point is just that there is the ultimate escape hatch of flashing a custom ROM, and it's not THAT hard to do, especially with all the tools out there to flash things like LineageOS super easily. You may not understand what it's doing, but it is at least sitting on officially supported things for the devices Google sells.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#246

Post by mehrdadn »

kllrnohj wrote: post #178
soulofmischief wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're focusing on the entire picture. Some people here like iOS for the reasons you described. However I'm willing to bet, unless you can show me otherwise, that it's a vocal minority. I don't know of anyone personally who is happy that Apple disallows GPL code. Comparing Apple's digital Fort Knox with Google's unsupervised free-for-all is a false dichotomy. There exists a happy medium, where power use…

> There exists a happy medium, where power users get all the freedom they want but apps are still by default beholden to certain restrictions. And this is orthogonal to a proprietary API. Is this not the happy medium Google is trying to hit? Power users can unlock their bootloader and do whatever they want. This is still officially supported, with vendor blobs officially provided. By default things are restricted to…

> Power users can unlock their bootloader and do whatever they want. This is still officially supported, with vendor blobs officially provided.

A bit of a tangent but I'm a "power user" and still can't get rid of the stupid warning in the beginning. Definitely not a happy medium.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#247

Post by shawnz »

buildzr wrote: post #117
lern_too_spel wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal already implements it. Signal uses E2E encryption, so your attack vector doesn't work. https://community.signalusers.org/t/gcm-will-be-removed-from...

> Signal uses E2E encryption, so your attack vector doesn't work. End-to-end encryption is just that. That Firebase library is running on the client phone (aka, an end), if Google put code into the library allowing it to download updates it would also be running in Signal's context which would allow it to trivially dump and exfiltrate messages, memory, etc from the Signal process. Now, we have no reason to believe su…

If this is your angle, then they wouldn't need you to load any library for them to be able to do this attack. They have root, so they could do the attack regardless of firebase being open source.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#248

Post by roboys »

ViViDboarder wrote: post #167
izacus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter how much money Google is going to have to pay in the future as a fine for this practice. The amount of money that they will get for kicking out the competition is going to be way higher. That is a learned lesson from Microsoft (and probably others before them). The competition in this case is Apples iOS, for which even HackerNews users love to harp over and over and over again how amazing it is an…

I would like a choice between consistent and curated vs open and free with both respecting privacy. Unfortunately, the choices today are limited.

Good thing Huawei is cut off, we might get some much needed options that are not tied to Google Play Services.

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#249

Post by xwvvvvwx »

izacus wrote: post #132
kartan wrote: post #26

> Problem: The Firebase Android client library is proprietary, meaning FOSS apps can not use it. Apps that do not comply are reported to the user as "using too much battery". This is a standard on the industry. From 1999: https://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_i... It doesn't matter how much money Google is going to have to pay in the future as a fine for this practice. The amount of money that th…

> It doesn't matter how much money Google is going to have to pay in the future as a fine for this practice. The amount of money that they will get for kicking out the competition is going to be way higher. That is a learned lesson from Microsoft (and probably others before them). The competition in this case is Apples iOS, for which even HackerNews users love to harp over and over and over again how amazing it is an…

Two things:

1. According to the reddit post the firebase library makes no difference to battery life

2. It is perfectly possible to provide strong guarantees around battery usage and resource consumption with open source code

Re: Android now forces apps to include proprietary code for push notifications

#250

Post by zepto »

maxaf wrote: post #142
soulofmischief wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're focusing on the entire picture. Some people here like iOS for the reasons you described. However I'm willing to bet, unless you can show me otherwise, that it's a vocal minority. I don't know of anyone personally who is happy that Apple disallows GPL code. Comparing Apple's digital Fort Knox with Google's unsupervised free-for-all is a false dichotomy. There exists a happy medium, where power use…

Please forgive me for being unnecessarily obtuse this early on a Monday morning. Where does Apple say that GPL code isn’t allowed on the App Store? I ask entirely out of my selfish need to avoid unpleasant surprises later on.

They don’t- it’s the FSF restricting developers freedom. Not Apple.
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