Let's make them pay for using our personal data • Hacker News Board

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#91

Post by sourthyme » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

ccallebs wrote: post #78

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #71

I know this is a really unpopular opinion, but what I don't get is why all this fuss over personal data? So what if facebook records what sites you've been to? If I visit starbucks, When I go to order my latte, the owners/baristas remember my name and face and maybe even what drink I ordered - you certainly don't mind that, right? People aren't normally sensitive to these things: for example Govt on average takes 1/3…

Imagine that an entity knows your worst fears, deepest desires, biggest perversions, most sensitive insecurities, the people you love, the people you hate, the things you covet. Now let's pretend that they know how to use this information to change your opinion. And not just your opinion, but the opinion of however many people fit their targeted persuasion campaign. Then understand that the moment the data is sold to…

I feel like this is a bit superfluous fear mongering. We are somewhat in control of ourselves, and should be expected to take responsibility for our actions. And this is just another way of using ads to attempt to manipulate us. Overtime we will learn to adjust the influence of ads, just as we have done before. I don't trust the government to fix this entirely, so I think its more important to learn to identify these persuasions, so they don't influence our actions.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#92

Post by anyfoo » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #71

I know this is a really unpopular opinion, but what I don't get is why all this fuss over personal data? So what if facebook records what sites you've been to? If I visit starbucks, When I go to order my latte, the owners/baristas remember my name and face and maybe even what drink I ordered - you certainly don't mind that, right? People aren't normally sensitive to these things: for example Govt on average takes 1/3…

Others explained, let's do a simple experiment instead: I see you are posting as "thorwasdfasdf". Why don't you instead not only use your real name, but also post your salary, profession, address, current and past lovers, intimate messages with them, what you like, what you don't, fights you had over electronic messaging...

What's the hold up? Is it not the same as the barista at Starbucks knowing your name and what coffee you like?

(Also, I don't get the comparison to taxes. You do realize that taxes pay for your infrastructure, safety, health--at least indirectly through regulation even if your country does not have public health care, justice system? But that's not really relevant to the topic here.)

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#93

Post by behringer » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #82

sp332 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google does sell personal data, a little at a time. If I make an ad that targets young dog owners in Seattle, then when someone clicks that ad I know Google thinks they're a young dog owner in Seattle. Google sold me data about that person.

Not that I'm saying we shouldn't be careful with our personal data, but: There's some serious mental gymnastics going from "young dog owners in Seattle" to selling somebody a dossier with their location, search & browsing history (all of which you can turn off).

What? You can't turn off any of that. It's recorded whether you see it or not.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#94

Post by behringer » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

sourthyme wrote: post #91

ccallebs wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that an entity knows your worst fears, deepest desires, biggest perversions, most sensitive insecurities, the people you love, the people you hate, the things you covet. Now let's pretend that they know how to use this information to change your opinion. And not just your opinion, but the opinion of however many people fit their targeted persuasion campaign. Then understand that the moment the data is sold to…

I feel like this is a bit superfluous fear mongering. We are somewhat in control of ourselves, and should be expected to take responsibility for our actions. And this is just another way of using ads to attempt to manipulate us. Overtime we will learn to adjust the influence of ads, just as we have done before. I don't trust the government to fix this entirely, so I think its more important to learn to identify these…

Where's the fear mongering? This has already happened. Look at fake news. Look at russia manipulating people. Ads work, there is no way to adjust their influence other than refusing to allow them into your life at all. Even then, there's many ads you can't avoid online or in real life.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#95

Post by clairity » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #77

nostrademons wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but that's basically the same information that you can get through the referer header in HTTP or by A/B testing different print ads. If you put up flyers in a certain neighborhood telling people to visit a URL, and you put up flyers in a different neighborhood with a different URL, then when somebody visits your site you know where they live. This is of a dramatically different scale from the information Goo…

I would be a lot more OK with this if Google were only using that data about me themselves instead of letting anyone with a little money use it too!

> "I would be a lot more OK with this if Google were only using that data about me themselves instead of letting anyone with a little money use it too!"

that would be better, but google would still be subject to attacks by adversaries and (secret) subpeonas by governments.

much better would be if they did their analytics on user data in real-time and store only the results while discarding the source data right away.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#96

Post by thorwasdfasdf » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #88

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #71

I know this is a really unpopular opinion, but what I don't get is why all this fuss over personal data? So what if facebook records what sites you've been to? If I visit starbucks, When I go to order my latte, the owners/baristas remember my name and face and maybe even what drink I ordered - you certainly don't mind that, right? People aren't normally sensitive to these things: for example Govt on average takes 1/3…

I'll give it a shot. Yeah, so you don't give a crap about being tracked everywhere, having your every inclination, desire, thought, intention, or deed recorded. You're fine with them knowing everything about you, about your family, friends, associates, acquaintances, and all their doings and preferences too. But then one day you wake up and you realize that your entire existence is being mined to corral you into corr…

I think what your saying is that facebook makes it easier for the government to come after you, if you blow a whistle. But, if the gov came after you, i think they'd be able to get you if they really wanted you.

And basically, that FB monitoring reduces our willingness to share who we really are (at least the edgy non-conformist stuff)

For sex toys and other non-conformist stuff, signout of facebook and use Google in-cognito mode. You don't want that stuff on Facebook anyways.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#97

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

netwanderer3 wrote: post #89

jakelazaroff wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems… very dystopian. Would we be okay with e.g. landlords placing cameras in the bathrooms of apartments for rent unless the tenant paid an extra fee? What if it were framed as a discount and targeted low-income housing? Why should we allow our privacy to be commoditized, instead of enshrining it as a basic human right?

It's not mandatory. Everything else would still remain the same for free users just like what we already have, this is only for those who prefer not to be included in the data so now they will have the option to pay instead. Obviously we cannot expect Google to provide their services for free as it's very costly to maintain such global infrastructure and their team of engineers, therefore in turn Google would need us…

You're presupposing that privacy is a commodity, but I'm suggesting that it should be more sacred than that.

> In the end this will simply serve as another payment option for those who value their privacy more than cash.

The problem with this is it makes privacy a luxury. Should those living paycheck to paycheck have to choose between their privacy and finding things on the Internet?

If privacy is a commodity, then this is fine. But then, so is the status quo: privacy is currency to be exchanged for services, and companies should stretch that currency as far as possible. There is no sound moral argument against what Google/Facebook/etc are doing. The current advertising model may not work for everyone, but who cares? The market has spoken.

If privacy is a human right, then this is obviously insufficient. We can't allow companies to exploit people who can't afford it by making it opt-in; we need to strictly enforce it for everyone.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#98

Post by donatj » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

anyfoo wrote: post #92

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #71

I know this is a really unpopular opinion, but what I don't get is why all this fuss over personal data? So what if facebook records what sites you've been to? If I visit starbucks, When I go to order my latte, the owners/baristas remember my name and face and maybe even what drink I ordered - you certainly don't mind that, right? People aren't normally sensitive to these things: for example Govt on average takes 1/3…

Others explained, let's do a simple experiment instead: I see you are posting as "thorwasdfasdf". Why don't you instead not only use your real name, but also post your salary, profession, address, current and past lovers, intimate messages with them, what you like, what you don't, fights you had over electronic messaging... What's the hold up? Is it not the same as the barista at Starbucks knowing your name and what…

I think there is a huge difference between having this info publically accessible where people can judge and mock you for it, and simply having it used statistically to sell you things. I don't care what the computer thinks about me.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#99

Post by titzer » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #96

titzer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give it a shot. Yeah, so you don't give a crap about being tracked everywhere, having your every inclination, desire, thought, intention, or deed recorded. You're fine with them knowing everything about you, about your family, friends, associates, acquaintances, and all their doings and preferences too. But then one day you wake up and you realize that your entire existence is being mined to corral you into corr…

I think what your saying is that facebook makes it easier for the government to come after you, if you blow a whistle. But, if the gov came after you, i think they'd be able to get you if they really wanted you. And basically, that FB monitoring reduces our willingness to share who we really are (at least the edgy non-conformist stuff) For sex toys and other non-conformist stuff, signout of facebook and use Google in…

No, what I am saying is that we have totally normalized criminal stalking in the digital age. If you think incognito mode is going to save you, I suggest you dig deeper. And turn off your location history and high-accuracy mode! And WiFi! Seriously, you should basically assume your cellphone is a surveillance device, because it is.

Re: Let's make them pay for using our personal data

#100

Post by cameronbrown » Mon, Jun 10, 2019, 6:46 PM UTC

behringer wrote: post #93

cameronbrown wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I'm saying we shouldn't be careful with our personal data, but: There's some serious mental gymnastics going from "young dog owners in Seattle" to selling somebody a dossier with their location, search & browsing history (all of which you can turn off).

What? You can't turn off any of that. It's recorded whether you see it or not.

Where's your evidence for this? Are you saying Google violates their privacy policy billions of times per day (every search, location update, page view)? (i.e. fraud)