Earlier quoted context omitted.
The cure today, which is the enforcement of a set of beliefs on pain of shunning or job loss, is worse than the disease. For example the Connie St Louis fiasco
Not familiar with Connie St Louis. I see a twitter channel by that name. What happened? Curious to read a bit more, any pointers?
‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
51–60 of 91 posts
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#52What a banal way to advertise your book.
There, that’s one of those “knock down” the article is about. There’s this point I heard someone made about internet toxicity: “it used to be that if you didn’t have anything positive to say you’d just shit up and move on; if anything to avoid a bitter quarrel in person. On the internet, the lack of any immediate personal consequence removed this restraint, allowing the worst thoughts to pour out, and drown whatever…
You comment is anything but positive, and yet you have written it.
The last paragraph ("Thanks, for being today’s example. Now can you please make the effort next time?") is downright nasty.
My impression from people like you is that your kind loves writing toxic comments but thinks that covering them with a fig leaf of a supposedly 'good' cause and high moral ground somehow makes that acceptable.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Strange, when I was a kid adults had the opposite attitude towards us. Boys were considered inherently mischievous, prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good, while girls were considered rule-abiding, smart and hard-working.
These two actually coexist happily, somehow. Boys are simultaneously assumed prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good and better at math etc. Girls are simultaneously rule-abiding, smart and hard-working, but also a bit dumber and not for math and lazy princesses. Also, girls are more social and better at relationships, but also cant have by gender good relationship among them as they are desti…
You're saying that OPs perspective is wrong? Because that was the implicit perception in my friend and familial circle. Between friends, cousins and siblings, the boys were by and large fuck-ups and girls were responsible. Almost every girl I knew went to university, whereas (maybe) half the boys did. Most in my circle did well in life, but the ones that didn't were guys.
Things just aren't that simple, and there is tendency of only highlighting these 'microaggressions' suffered by young girls. I don't dismiss that it happens, but growing up sucks for everybody and these indignities are suffered by everyone. And it doesn't end with school, when I started working I went out to some trade-shows as a technical resources with a young (under-30) sales guy. We got no respect from the 50+ year old gray beards in our industry. As in, we, and especially him, got overtly disrespected because of our inexperience and youth. And when you're young, you always feel like you're behind (because you are), and you're desperately trying to push forward and gain recognition, respect and acceptance and you really feel the small daily indignities, from the meeting you weren't invited to, to project you aren't on, to your ideas being ignored (not even dismissed, just ignored), to simply not getting the credibility or respect or recognition you feel you deserve.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#54It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…
I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and…
As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why.
> I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them
One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. When girls bully other girls, they do it indirectly. It is more psychologically directed and intensely focused on gossip and disguised status seeking behavior. It is rarely directly confrontational, and I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that way.
It's more like, "that guys such an idiot. He said and to me. Can you believe that?"
Teenage boys on the other hand are manifestly different. I am not an expert on male teenage behavior, but judging from the fact that the vast majority of teens sending epithets to other people online or on social media are overwhelmingly likely to be teenaged boys, I would suggest that the male pattern is aggressive and an overt dominance game.
Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with.
> It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women.
Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men.
> I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous
I have not made that claim.
I am just talking about my experience. Your mileage may vary.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#55It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…
Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't do math". In fact, for most of my educational life the "top student of the class" has been female, even through engineering and maths. Am I some kind of odd outlier? is the experience on other countries different? I'm genouinly curious.
Same for Northern Europe. Most of the smart kids in high school were girls. Some went on to study science, but I don't think any of them were interested in computers or went for CS degrees. In fact I know way more women with math and other science degrees; I am not sure why those women did not show interest in specifically engineering or CS, which do have low numbers of female students.
Perhaps those fields are perceived as not social, introverted, not warm or inviting; but I feel it would probably be a bad idea to market them as such and force a lot of young women into engineering and CS out of some misguided principle rather than their own future happiness.
Of course there are certain men that make claims about women's ability to do math, but in my experience those are often men that clearly don't possess that ability themselves... Their opinion might be mostly detrimental to their own offspring rather than to society as a whole. Those tend not to be people whose boys attend university either.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#56It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…
By my SO's account statements from her parents like "it's okay you're bad at math - I was too" were much more damaging in the long run.
Well, that's probably what most people tell their children, male or female. I know I've heard that line a few times. It's sad how the love of parents trying to prevent disappointment seems to be a major factor in stopping kids from actually trying something hard.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#57I too never thought I was smart enough - in my case, for computers. Nothing to do with my gender. My father bought me my first computer at 10. But, others said that I can't learn programming if I don't know maths, and I was crap at maths. So I didn't learn to program. Not until I went to university, to study computer science, of all things. I was good at language, so I treated programming as a language problem. I lea…
Congratulations! Your comment reminded me that 50% of my current team do not have a STEM degree.
I decided to create a short survey to try to collect some data: https://delibes.typeform.com/to/Uix5hM
It's probably not very scientific! Still, if anyone fills it in then I'll share the results.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and…
As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why. > I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. W…
> Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men.
You're basically saying that males are more resilient and assertive - this doesn't mean that females can't "shoot down" boys, however indirectly. When you're constantly hearing about "toxic masculinity" being the problem and all males are being equated to toxic, entitled narcissists who might turn "creepy" on you at any moment, are you sure that this isn't a drag to the average guy? Guys care about being included socially, too. They can deal with overt hostility if they have to, but let's not pretend that they'll be happy about it.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
These two actually coexist happily, somehow. Boys are simultaneously assumed prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good and better at math etc. Girls are simultaneously rule-abiding, smart and hard-working, but also a bit dumber and not for math and lazy princesses. Also, girls are more social and better at relationships, but also cant have by gender good relationship among them as they are desti…
You're saying that OPs perspective is wrong? Because that was the implicit perception in my friend and familial circle. Between friends, cousins and siblings, the boys were by and large fuck-ups and girls were responsible. Almost every girl I knew went to university, whereas (maybe) half the boys did. Most in my circle did well in life, but the ones that didn't were guys. Things just aren't that simple, and there is…
No, I am saying that the stereotype he detected really exists and somehow happily coexist with other stereotypes. That the stereotypes when combined into one person become inconsistent.
Personally I knew plenty of boys that were not fuckups. I know also boys who are fuckups or went through periods where they as kids were troubles, but I know also plenty of perfectly fine boys.
Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and…
As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why. > I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. W…
>I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that
In middle-school and high-school I have never heard talk about girls being less competent than boys. You couldn't. Girls did better at school. Girls were Lisa Simpson, and boys were Bart Simpson. If there was a stereotype, that's what it was. If you went to a remedial class at my school(s), it would have been 3/4 boys. The vast majority of suspensions were given to boys.
Maybe the schools I went to were the exception, but no way could this be a singular experience.
>Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with.
I feel you're making generalizations that don't reflect reality.
>A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men.
It matters to everyone. Who doesn't want a workplace that is welcoming and safe?