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Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#21

Post by cynix »

marbiru wrote: post #4
cynix wrote: post #3

I think in addition to hosting/distribution costs, a reason they charge an annual fee is to weed out spammers, which I think is a good idea. The fee is low enough (equivalent to about 2 cups of coffee per month) that any serious developer should have no problem paying it.

How does the annual fee weed out spammers exactly? Are there examples on Android of the kind of spam apps you're worried about?

Spammers are less likely to keep their apps in the store if there’s an ongoing cost. Or to submit it at all, if the initial cost is high enough.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#22

Post by skinnymuch »

cynix wrote: post #18
marbiru wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also.. for the record, my main complaint is that they're kicking off apps that they've already approved if the developer doesn't continue to pay $99 every year. I don't see how that's justified by weeding out spammers or their target audience for developers or anything else.

As an end user, I would expect apps to be updated at least as frequently as once a year, given that they release major OS upgrades and new hardware each year. Frankly, if you can't be bothered to update your apps, I'd rather not see them in the store. Apple is optimising for user experience here, and developers who don’t keep their apps up to date for the best user experience clearly isn’t Apple’s top priority.

There are definitely some apps I have or currently enjoy that have not been updated in a year. I’d much rather have them than not.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#23

Post by cynix »

skinnymuch wrote: post #22
cynix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an end user, I would expect apps to be updated at least as frequently as once a year, given that they release major OS upgrades and new hardware each year. Frankly, if you can't be bothered to update your apps, I'd rather not see them in the store. Apple is optimising for user experience here, and developers who don’t keep their apps up to date for the best user experience clearly isn’t Apple’s top priority.

There are definitely some apps I have or currently enjoy that have not been updated in a year. I’d much rather have them than not.

Sure, if the developer is willing to pay the annual fee and not get their money’s worth, that’s their choice. But the fee will likely discourage such practices. OP is living proof that there are devs who don’t want to pay the fee if they don’t intend to update their apps.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#24

Post by marbiru »

wallflower wrote: post #19
marbiru wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't want to look like I was hawking something so I didn't include a link but these are my apps: https://itunes.apple.com/us/developer/uri-bram/id1222415460 That's interesting, about the pre-Apple days, I didn't know that. Do you know how/why Google manages at $0 per year though (with a $25 one-off fee), while Apple charges $99 per year? It's really hard for me to believe that Apple's price would survive in any k…

Apple has always been a premium brand. And it is reflected in the “Apple tax” (Mac and $99/yr annual developer subscription). If you ever have the opportunity to attend an Apple organized developer event (WWDC usually), you will feel that they truly want to provide the technology, SDKs, and support to enable you and your team to build the best app experiences that you can. For the equivalent experience that users now…

To be honest my experience developing for Apple has been pretty unambiguously bad. For example, for (at least) 6 months there was a bug where users couldn't submit an App Store review unless they had a "sufficiently distinct username", but instead of notifying the user in any way to change their username the review just wouldn't submit. When I reported to Apple Support that multiple users had told me they were unable to submit reviews, Apple shunted me around from department to department and generally wasted a vast amount of my time with each department claiming it was another department's issue. To my knowledge this bug was never publicly disclosed, even though it affected every app on the store (and especially small apps that rely entirely on reviews to be noticed by new customers). And (at least in my interactions with them) Apple didn't seem to care. It sounds like your experience with them has been different, which is great, but I can't say I felt they were enabling me to build the best app I can.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#25

Post by marbiru »

cynix wrote: post #17
marbiru wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iOS has a 22% market share according to the first result on Google. that's worldwide, in the U.S. they're at 45%. And it's not a traditional duopoly in that there's huge lock-in -- I can buy Coke one day and switch to Pepsi the next (or whatever), but once a customer is on a particular phone they're locked into that platform's app store. So, yeah, I think they're exercising monopolistic pricing when selling access…

Why does a higher market share in the US have any significance in this discussion? According to [1] the US only accounts for about 10% of the global smartphone market. As an Australian, I couldn't care less about their US market share. And even if we go by 45%, that's still not close to a monopoly. You're not by any means forced to publish apps on their app store. [1] https://www.countriestoday.com/smartphone-users-b…

hmm, ok, I take your point that the US share specifically doesn't really matter so long as Apple is pricing the developer account globally -- it definitely matters to me (in the sense that many of my users are American iPhone owners) but maybe not for the pricing analysis overall. My bad.

I still do think that Apple is employing monopolistic pricing on the app store, though -- they don't have a monopoly on the smartphone market, for sure, and indeed their smartphone prices are (certainly premium but still) constrained by the prices of other competing phones. Once a customer owns an iPhone, though, the Apple app store is the only way to reach them. And Apple's pricing for developer accounts seems to reflect that - I really don't believe $99 is the equilibrium price here, nor that policies like kicking apps out the store as soon as the developer stops paying would survive in a competitive market.

I'm absolutely not forced to publish my apps to Apple, and obviously I'm taking the option not to publish them there now. And please don't get me wrong, my apps are super trivial and nobody will actually miss them when they're gone. But it does seem sad to me that both me and my potential future users will lose out (in whatever small way) because of Apple's non-competitive developer account pricing, even when I would have been very happy to pay the fair market rate for a developer account.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#26

Post by soulchild37 »

If you are a non-profit organization, you can apply for a free developer account : https://developer.apple.com/support/membership-fee-waiver/

I am an iOS/macOS developer myself and have few apps in (Mac) App Store as well, I think the $99/ year serve as a motivation for me to keep on improving my app (to sell more to cover the cost), the $99/yr would probably weed out spammers as well. Try and compare how many spam apps in Play Store vs App Store.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#27

Post by jamesmp98 »

marbiru wrote: post #5
notlukesky wrote: post #2

What are the apps by the way? In the pre-Apple days, mobile app makers on J2ME, BREW, Symbian etc had to give up to 70 percent to marketplaces and spend potentially up to 50 thousand dollars or more to code sign each app across multiple device types. $99 for code signing all the individual developers apps across all devices and publishing it was unheard of at the time and truly shocking compared to the old paradigm.…

I didn't want to look like I was hawking something so I didn't include a link but these are my apps: https://itunes.apple.com/us/developer/uri-bram/id1222415460 That's interesting, about the pre-Apple days, I didn't know that. Do you know how/why Google manages at $0 per year though (with a $25 one-off fee), while Apple charges $99 per year? It's really hard for me to believe that Apple's price would survive in any k…

> Do you know how/why Google manages at $0 per year though (with a $25 one-off fee), while Apple charges $99 per year? It's really hard for me to believe that Apple's price would survive in any kind of competitive market, but I'm willing to be convinced. IIRC, Apple has a majority share in the US smartphone market and strong brand loyalty among it's users

In fairness there is tons of scamware, and general garbage in the play store.

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#28

Post by marbiru »

soulchild37 wrote: post #26

If you are a non-profit organization, you can apply for a free developer account : https://developer.apple.com/support/membership-fee-waiver/ I am an iOS/macOS developer myself and have few apps in (Mac) App Store as well, I think the $99/ year serve as a motivation for me to keep on improving my app (to sell more to cover the cost), the $99/yr would probably weed out spammers as well. Try and compare how many spam a…

thanks! I'm not a non-profit unfortunately, but hopefully that can be helpful for others.

A couple of people have made this Play Store spam-apps comparison but personally I feel like the more relevant differentiator is that Apple seems much more stringent on which apps it accepts (e.g. rejecting "duplicate apps" if someone else has filled the same niche already, which Play doesn't claim to do), rathe rather the $99 charge. That said, I never actually had an issue with spam apps in the Play store -- I'm sure they're out there but my experience as a user is that if I'm looking for X then the top three results are reasonable solutions to X and I'm going to pick one of them, and never get further down in the store. Has your experience been different?

Re: Apple Charging to Keep Apps in Store

#29

Post by marbiru »

jamesmp98 wrote: post #27
marbiru wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't want to look like I was hawking something so I didn't include a link but these are my apps: https://itunes.apple.com/us/developer/uri-bram/id1222415460 That's interesting, about the pre-Apple days, I didn't know that. Do you know how/why Google manages at $0 per year though (with a $25 one-off fee), while Apple charges $99 per year? It's really hard for me to believe that Apple's price would survive in any k…

> Do you know how/why Google manages at $0 per year though (with a $25 one-off fee), while Apple charges $99 per year? It's really hard for me to believe that Apple's price would survive in any kind of competitive market, but I'm willing to be convinced. IIRC, Apple has a majority share in the US smartphone market and strong brand loyalty among it's users In fairness there is tons of scamware, and general garbage in…

>In fairness there is tons of scamware, and general garbage in the play store.

I've heard this from a few people here, but I'm not convinced that the $99 fee is the relevant differentiator -- Apple already has stricter requirements to get into the store (e.g. apps have to be "original" and can't duplicate functionality of an existing app), and it feels to me like for any particular form of scamware Apple can just ban it directly -- I'm not sure how the $99 per year fee helps, because if anything scammers/spammers are more effective at making money off their apps than most of us so should be more willing to swallow the fee. (Also I'm still annoyed that Apple is kicking out apps that have already paid the fee and been approved/authorised -- no matter what the relevant filter is those apps have already passed it)

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