New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It • Hacker News Board

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#241

Post by specialist » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:45 AM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #227

luckydata wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to rock your world: almost nobody uses the keyword scanners in the ATSs. Sending a resume is mostly a waste of time, if you find a job you like just speak to someone that works at that company, preferably the hiring manager, and your likelihood of at least getting an interview goes up by about two orders of magnitude. Happy to teach you other tricks if you care for it.

As a 50+ chap, I had an instance of a top company, referred by friend, whole team up for it and to not even get an interview as I got `filtered` by HR and the recruitment process. Turns out they rejected me as I was `overqualified`. Equally in my early years pre PC mainstream days, there was an age bias towards older people. With many personal experiences upon that in that time/culture - including, believe it or not…

As a gen-x'er, I wonder about being caught in the middle. I was too young for boomers (started as weekend tech in 9th grade). Now I sense I'm too old for millennials.

Supposedly both demo groups strongly prefer their own. Whereas us x'ers were so few, we just had to get along with everyone.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#242

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

nickpsecurity wrote: post #224

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'. That's fine. I actually did. But it seems really inappropriate to say this here. We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this. It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white vo…

"Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'." That's not what I'm reading in the comment. They are telling you it's a different game, they focus on what kinds of value you bring that they actually care about, and you can have leverage in such situations if you are such a person. From there, you automatically know to be the person delivering on the metrics that…

This whole thread is coming from an article discussing age bias.

Not ways to avoid getting biased against. Or justifications for biases. So it makes sense to keep the comments on topic.

Even if my case wasn't an ageist thing, which is a lot of assuming on your end, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It takes a certain type of person though to go out and doubt someone when they say they have suffered from something and have nothing to gain from it.

The assumptions are very pedantic, explaining them only furthers the pedantry. It's not that I don't understand them. It's that I understand them too well.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#243

Post by marcinzm » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:51 AM UTC

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #223

marcinzm wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is my experience that when people resort to sarcasm they have lost the argument and can't face it. Or they understand that this site is in the end entertainment. Sarcasm makes it more fun for both the writer and the other readers. You're projecting how much you care about this issue onto me. Reality is, I don't care about it much at all, it's a mild intellectual diversion to me. You're hurt by this, you're infuri…

So 1 of 3: 1- Rational: Your original argument is flawed, you realize it and have changed but can't admit it 2- Irrational: You can't defend your argument since you haven't, but won't change 3- Plain Nasty: You are trolling. I'm inclined to think 3, though most people don't use their real name when trolling.

Or 4. I don't care to argue those points because I find doing so to not be entertaining or insightful. I used to argue to the death and then I realized that in the end it brought neither joy nor enlightenment. So I don't anymore.

You're free to think you've won, I don't care. Although one piece of life advice for someone who seems to like arguing and seems to be good at it. People will often stop arguing with you because they find it tiring. You'll think you've won and pat yourself on the back. They'll think you didn't win. Instead they'll just think you're good at arguing (but still wrong), an a-hole and will dislike you silently from then on.

Normally I would have stopped responding by now but I find this side conversation insightful.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#244

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:56 AM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #238

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One day I will know as much about my own life as you seem to believe you know about me. Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me. So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discrimina…

>So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old? Or are you going to admit to being a troll like you did on the other comment when I addressed your weak arguments? I didn't say it was. I said, it's okay to discriminate against personality traits which generally come wi…

Reading your post, it sounds like what your saying is that discriminating against the young is justified and not that big of a deal.

It seems your post makes this argument without actually stating as much. So I'm trying to get where you stand on age discrimination against the young.

P.S. this is irrelevant to requesting experience, that is a requirement independent of what age the person has.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#245

Post by x0 » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:57 AM UTC

goatlover wrote: post #235

uoaei wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the software engineer's great stumbling block in his stride toward hiring fairness is not the Genius Asshole or the Bullshitter Who Can't Code, but the anonymous internet commenter, who is more devoted to 'pragmatism' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of reform to a positive peace which is the presence of fairness..."

So anonymous internet comments are inhibiting the fair hiring practices of software engineers? Is there a study establishing the causal link between these two, because it sounds like spurious BS.

I think he's quoted MLK and substituted some phrases.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#246

Post by jhayward » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 12:59 AM UTC

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #208

jhayward wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the incivility and self-righteousness that comes through in these comments may have lead some to think that the poster needs some time to gain perspective, and wisdom, about how to deal with everyone with respect.

I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?

My point is that what you believe to be age discrimination may not be that at all, rather a judgement of suitability based on temperament and how relationships are handled.

A certain equanimity and humility often is attributed to age and the acquisition of wisdom. Perhaps this is what was referred to, rather than an actual judgement based on age.

People frequently do not confront behavior directly, rather using euphemisms or attributing decisions to other aspects to avoid a heated and personal confrontation. One of the necessary skills of leadership positions is to be aware of this and respond to the real, underlying issue rather than the superficial one.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#247

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 1:01 AM UTC

xd wrote: post #90

outlace wrote: post #74

If 70 year olds really are less productive software engineers than single Red Bull-fueled 22 year olds (on average), and you thus end up hiring less 70 year olds, is that really discrimination? I get the article has stories from older people that seem to suggest they are well-qualified for the job and literally just their age number seems to lose them the job, which of course would be discriminatory. But the law suit…

"(eg I’ll take an older more experienced surgeon over the new junior attending any day, but I’ll bet on the young person in a football match or tasks that require a lot of cognitive flexibility)" You seem to be contradicting yourself there, why you would you think an older surgeon lacks cognitive flexibility?

[deleted]

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#248

Post by vinceguidry » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 1:02 AM UTC

The way I look at it, when you work in tech, it doesn't take long for fields to become stratified. I've gotten turned down for a senior job for not having enough "agile experience." Really? Am you looking for an engineer or a project manager?

I think every single programmer needs to be looking forward to the day where every single job move is at best a lateral one, so it's going to make more sense to move towards business rather than staying in IC if you want upward mobility as a 'regular' coder.

I suspect IC technical jobs are going to be the next professional class, you're either going to be in when that happens or you're going to be out. You won't realize it's happened and you're not in until you get laid off and replaced by a contractor at a fraction of your salary, and you won't be able to find a job except as one of those contractors.

The reckoning is coming guys. Get ready for it.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#249

Post by rs23296008n1 » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 1:03 AM UTC

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #44

Is it just me or is there a way lower bar for evidence when it comes to age discrimination in tech on Hackernews compared to gender or race discrimination. I’m not saying that it’s not a real phenomenon, but pretty much all the evidence I’ve seen is anecdotal or fairly weak. While it’s true that a lot of older people are great programmers, I also think programming ability is only about 50% of what most people are loo…

You're going to get anecdotes on HN because this is a discussion website.

Also, studies on this issue tend to not be well known without effort looking them up. The asshole factor is relevant but not as much as you would expect.

The actual perception that older workers haven't kept their edge is actually a common bias I've seen while gathering people for hiring. This bias is probably common amongst younger looking at older workers (eg 25 year old not hiring 35 year old) but also amongst older looking at less older. Eg a 50 year old won't hire a 40 year old because they wonder why the 40 year old even wants the position. Those two viewpoints seem to be recurring patterns at least in my experience.

You probably want hard data. I'm sure it is out here, Department of labor?

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#250

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sun, Jun 09, 2019, 1:10 AM UTC

jhayward wrote: post #246

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?

My point is that what you believe to be age discrimination may not be that at all, rather a judgement of suitability based on temperament and how relationships are handled. A certain equanimity and humility often is attributed to age and the acquisition of wisdom. Perhaps this is what was referred to, rather than an actual judgement based on age. People frequently do not confront behavior directly, rather using euphe…

Bob, the CEO, turned out to be a good friend of mine. Next time we have some beers, I'll tell him that his perspective was false and he was trying to protect my feelings (despite being a very brash guy who is known for being upfront) - I'll tell him how jhayward, nickpsecurity, JumpCrisscross and marcinzm and others told me his leadership secrets.

Well, let's leave the world of theory, which I'll let the ass-u-me crowd dominate:

Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, even if sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me.

So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old?