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New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

nytimes.com

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Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#141

Post by marcinzm »

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #135
marcinzm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. It was because the old farts on the board wouldn't take me seriously. Except getting them to take you seriously is part of your job in upper management. Age matters but your view of them as old farts makes me suspect you did nothing to gain their favor in other ways. As someone else said, those ways have little to do with job based merit.

I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination. I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any…

Age is a proxy in people’s minds for other things, usually maturity, gravitas and playing the social game. Not always but more often than not. Age is a quick if inexact proxy but you can prove it in other ways.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#142

Post by perfmode »

uoaei wrote: post #124
wellpast wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this. I think evaluating/interviewing is hard, should be much more about experience and past projects but so what if the industry has got it wrong, so what you have to study a little to get the job? The world is what it is. I think criticizing this from a ‘we could do better as an industry’ perspective is productive but from a personal perspective — today — what is going to get you hired is playing the game as…

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the software engineer's great stumbling block in his stride toward hiring fairness is not the Genius Asshole or the Bullshitter Who Can't Code, but the anonymous internet commenter, who is more devoted to 'pragmatism' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of reform to a positive peace which is the presence of fairness..."

Amen.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#143

Post by scarejunba »

rootusrootus wrote: post #136
scarejunba wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope it does. It helps ensure that content creators are rewarded for creation.

The PiHole I use at home renders a lot of media sites unavailable to me. I'm not going to subscribe to all of them, so it will effectively reduce my bubble to whatever I'm willing to pay for (and I'll tell you know, that will basically be whatever I can get from a single all-you-can-eat provider, like Apple News).

I'm sure the actions of a person who would buy and set up a specialized device to block ads are not representative of the general population so I (and probably any other content producer) are not going to optimize for that use-case, though I do appreciate your sharing.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#144

Post by HillaryBriss »

outlace wrote: post #74

If 70 year olds really are less productive software engineers than single Red Bull-fueled 22 year olds (on average), and you thus end up hiring less 70 year olds, is that really discrimination? I get the article has stories from older people that seem to suggest they are well-qualified for the job and literally just their age number seems to lose them the job, which of course would be discriminatory. But the law suit…

this has to be viewed in the overall context of employment law and its purpose in society. we have anti discrimination laws not because the government is trying to give each and every corporation all the fuel it needs to become devilishly efficient. we have anti discrimination laws to increase equality and create a more even distribution of wealth and opportunity despite disadvantages imposed upon applicants by circumstance.

also, the government can be viewed as having an interest in keeping people employed in general so that they do not become dependent upon government for sustenance.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#145

Post by brandall10 »

thrownthrow wrote: post #131
brandall10 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love your attitude. I'm of the opinion that grinding through leetcode/hacker rank type exercises does improve your coding skills so I have no issue brushing up every time I'm on the market. To that end, I'm 43 and last on the market a few months back, accepted an offer within a week of looking, had 3 pending final/onsites (including Amazon Seattle) and at least another half dozen in earlier stages that I shut down. I…

3 times in 3 years with 10 to 20 companies each time plus cramming on top of that! Sounds exhausting.

It was a bit, but only about 1/3 ended up with an onsite.

Part of the reason is because I hadn't spent as much effort on this earlier in my career; now with the concern of agism, every time I'm on the market I try to level up my skillset.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#146

Post by JudgeWapner »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #56
RandomOpinion wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> older devs had to go into management to keep their career trajectory ... FAANG companies seem to have figured it out for people they've already hired. The FAANG companies and other technology platform companies have separate technical and management career tracks. Only those who want to be managers become managers.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. At a certain point, a lot of engineers plateau in terms of technical ability and are unable to continue to level up. For many, they feel compelled to switch tracks to management to continue to make progress, regardless of whether they have any innate ability or desire to excel at management.

> to continue to make progress,

or they fall for the money-making scam, where their new car payment is now the same amount as their rent originally was when they began their careers. Buying larger houses, etc. Basically always barely acclimating to their new level of wealth, so that they always try to climb up the next rung.

I recently quit a job that was advertised as a developer but turned into 90% paperwork. Lasted over a year (it was contractor anyway). But in hindsight, basically NO amount of money would make me happy or willing to fill out forms all day. Seriously, even another $100k wouldn't make me feel any better, I'd still be miserable and not doing what I love.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#148

Post by JudgeWapner »

forinti wrote: post #45

Head of HR once asked me what type of people we needed. I said we desperately needed older people. 20-year-old project managers don't have a clue. Company went under, he sells air-conditioning now.

> 20-year-old project managers don't have a clue

maybe the company should have had policies that gave their managers more clues?

> he sells air-conditioning now.

probably makes more (and accomplishes more) than many engineers, especially ones at vapor-ware startups.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#149

Post by 4ntonius8lock »

marcinzm wrote: post #141
4ntonius8lock wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination. I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any…

Age is a proxy in people’s minds for other things, usually maturity, gravitas and playing the social game. Not always but more often than not. Age is a quick if inexact proxy but you can prove it in other ways.

That's true.

But it seems really inappropriate to say this here.

We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this.

It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. Or suggesting that racial discrimination is justified. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person.

P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a very pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#150

Post by MRD85 »

pleasecalllater wrote: post #34

I still require to work in a company where my manager/boss/CTO know much more than me. I'm almost 40. It's really hard to work for a 20-something guy who has almost no experience and is happily making all the mistakes he could read in books about. Still, finding a job where my boss would know more is more and more problematic. When I was 33 I was rejected by a recruiter with "you know, here I have dozens of resumes o…

Is this in the US? The way you structure your writing makes me think you're not a native English speaker. What you could be describing is either a bias against hiring non-Americans (i.e. they should be cheap labour) or it's an issue from another country.
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