New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It • Hacker News Board

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#131

Post by thrownthrow » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #66

mykowebhn wrote: post #33

I'm 48, on the West Coast, and recently finished interviewing, receiving multiple offers. I did 250 Leetcode problems, practiced System Design, and Behavioral. In the end, I found doing 250 Leetcode was probably overkill, but it definitely helped. This will probably get me severely down-voted, and I do understand the antipathy toward having to Leetcode, but the way I see it is that I'm really lucky. I get to sit on m…

Love your attitude. I'm of the opinion that grinding through leetcode/hacker rank type exercises does improve your coding skills so I have no issue brushing up every time I'm on the market. To that end, I'm 43 and last on the market a few months back, accepted an offer within a week of looking, had 3 pending final/onsites (including Amazon Seattle) and at least another half dozen in earlier stages that I shut down. I…

3 times in 3 years with 10 to 20 companies each time plus cramming on top of that! Sounds exhausting.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#132

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

mykowebhn wrote: post #33

I'm 48, on the West Coast, and recently finished interviewing, receiving multiple offers. I did 250 Leetcode problems, practiced System Design, and Behavioral. In the end, I found doing 250 Leetcode was probably overkill, but it definitely helped. This will probably get me severely down-voted, and I do understand the antipathy toward having to Leetcode, but the way I see it is that I'm really lucky. I get to sit on m…

[deleted]

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#133

Post by bonestamp2 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #74

If 70 year olds really are less productive software engineers than single Red Bull-fueled 22 year olds (on average), and you thus end up hiring less 70 year olds, is that really discrimination? I get the article has stories from older people that seem to suggest they are well-qualified for the job and literally just their age number seems to lose them the job, which of course would be discriminatory. But the law suit…

> is that really discrimination?

Along similar lines, we have a decent amount of senior (read "older") people at our company that are well paid. But, most of the work we do can be done by less experienced people who are much cheaper. That almost always means they are young. We don't discriminate based on age, but if you just looked at the ages of people that we mostly hire then that data would look like we're discriminating based on age when age is not part of the decision at all.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#134

Post by JKCalhoun » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

epc wrote: post #42

sk5t wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting background - any story behind leaving IBM 18 years ago at the young age of ~33? As an aside, ultimate responsibility for IBM's corporate websites does not _sound_ very similar to the CTO role at a tech company.

I was burned out after 5 years of 7x24x365. Days were filled with conference calls and escalations about conference calls, nights were filled with the technical work I was supposed to be doing during the day. I was prohibited from filing patents due to some sort of corporate reporting arcanity, which derailed my technical career. I had (and apparently still have) an extremely negative reputation in the executive rank…

> 7x24x365

7x24x52 or 24x365

;^)

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#135

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #123

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #108

Odd that in an article about age based discrimination, they don't mention that there is also age based discrimination against young people, for example, getting into C level positions in the non-tech world. When I used to be employed by other people, I specifically remember being told "we can't really promote you to director, you are too young". I wasn't inexperienced (I started working full time at 16). It wasn't th…

>It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. It was because the old farts on the board wouldn't take me seriously. Except getting them to take you seriously is part of your job in upper management. Age matters but your view of them as old farts makes me suspect you did nothing to gain their favor in other ways. As someone else said, those ways have little to do with job based merit.

I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination.

I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any leverage, the numbers dropped for a good while after I left.

There are respectable old men and women. Just like there are respectable young men and women and there are snot nose kids who discriminate against old people. In general, people who discriminate lose the right to respect from me and I might refer to them in a despective tone when commenting on an anonymous site where I'm answering informally.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#136

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #79

thih9 wrote: post #52

> You’re in private mode. Log in or create a free New York Times account to continue reading in private mode. This is the first time I'm seeing this message and I hope this doesn't become a trend.

I hope it does. It helps ensure that content creators are rewarded for creation.

The PiHole I use at home renders a lot of media sites unavailable to me. I'm not going to subscribe to all of them, so it will effectively reduce my bubble to whatever I'm willing to pay for (and I'll tell you know, that will basically be whatever I can get from a single all-you-can-eat provider, like Apple News).

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#137

Post by m0zg » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #91

m0zg wrote: post #17

Mid-40s, feel like I have been discriminated against based on age more than once. Not being one to fruitlessly blame my misfortune on things I can't change, I exited the rat race and started consulting. Doubled my already staggering pay working fewer hours, and from home. I realize this is not an easy thing to get up and running, but do at least consider finding your true value on the open market. The results could b…

I did this for 4 years and went back to full-time management. Even in NYC, I struggled as I (as a DevOps guy) never had the latest tech. If they needed AWS, I got AWS (experience and certs) but then they wanted Docker. Now Kubernetes. Despite years of programming experience in three languages, I still get whiteboarded. The point is, I was being treated like a full-time employee in consultant interviews. A few smaller…

What "interviews" are you talking about? Your track record is supposed to speak for itself. The interview boils down to sitting down with a client and figuring out what they need and whether you can do it. Because you're a contractor you can be fired effortlessly, so there's very little risk for the client. You can also fire the client, so there's little risk for you.

I think you either don't have the right track record, or you're selling yourself incorrectly, by which I mean you're charging too little. Whiteboard interviews are out of the question as a contractor: I simply don't have time for this circus. One thing that helps with such things is pricing your services right. And that means charging more than you think is reasonable. The more you can charge, ironically, the easier these discussions get. The effect compounds further if you have several satisfied former clients who can give references.

My selling point is really simple, too: you've tried and you've failed, now let me show you what's possible.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#138

Post by 4ntonius8lock » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #127

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age. I earned my place by proving my value and reliability for years. Explaining why we discriminate is not helping those who want to see this stopped. It's like explaining why old people get discriminated upon. Yes, there is a logic to it. No, it is not acceptable. Yes, that is how it works now. No, that is not how it will always…

> was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age I’ve been told this and it sucks. I made the mistake of trying grovelling and complaining. Both failed for, with hindsight, fundamental reasons. If you’re ambitious, you have to develop a political sense. Keeping stock of leverage relationships is key. If you lack leverage, you can’t make demands. If you’d represented revenue…

Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'.

That's fine. I actually did.

But it seems really inappropriate to say this here.

We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this.

It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person.

P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a bit pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#139

Post by GordonS » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #6

I’m 45. I didn’t start aggressively job hopping until I was 35, before then I stayed at one job for almost 10 years. I haven’t once had a problem finding a job quickly. I was a generalist when I was 35 and started down the road of specializing in the Microsoft stack in 2008. I start pivoting in 2016 to more architect level roles but still staying hands on but with more cross platform languages (.Net Core, Node, Pytho…

Wow, this description is eerily similar to my own history and current situation - only real difference is a focus on Azure rather than AWS!

I've always been a strong believer in being a generalist - at least in my experience, the best developers and architects have some knowledge of networking, Windows, Linux, security etc. Basically, they know enough that they can quickly get to grips with almost anything that's thrown at them.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#140

Post by bongobongo » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #111

xd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(eg I’ll take an older more experienced surgeon over the new junior attending any day, but I’ll bet on the young person in a football match or tasks that require a lot of cognitive flexibility)" You seem to be contradicting yourself there, why you would you think an older surgeon lacks cognitive flexibility?

Because "developers get dumb by 30" is an HN meme that just won't go away. So every new batch of impressionable 20 year-olds hears it, at the same time VCs and big corps are telling them "you're so smart, now just submit to this series of hazing rituals."

This is accurate. Age discrimination is rampant in tech because young people are essentially recruited as unwitting scabs against their older peers. Aside from depressing wages and increasing loyalty (via fear of precarity), it’s also a very effective way to fight unionization, which software desperately needs (not for compensation reasons, although that will change, but for professional and ethical reasons).

It’s easy to impress a 24 year-old with a decent salary, a stocked kitchen, and lots of dumb little perks they can brag about (never mind that they are being paid, sometimes literally, in peanuts). They don’t start thinking about job security and labor power until it’s too late.