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WeChat and the Surveillance State

bbc.com

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Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#131

Post by halter73 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #121
tempguy9999 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy i…

Democracy will never be as stable as a regime or dictator, but it can also survive a lot more chaos and instability while still protecting the rights of its people. A stable system does not mean a robust one. A tea cup on a counter is stable, but easily broken. A spinning top is not very stable but can survive most falls.

> Democracy will never be as stable as a regime or dictator

Why never? While I'm not arguing that democracies are inherently super stable (that's empirically false), I don't think that democracies are inherently less stable than dictatorships.

I would think an system that peacefully transitions power with the consent of the governed on a regular basis would typically be more stable than a system where the transition of power is generally a once in a lifetime event dependent on whomever holds the most power in government during the transition.

I can understand the argument that transitioning power is less stable than maintaining existing power structures, but transitioning power is inevitable even if it's to an heir.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#132

Post by pishpash »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #105

I was explaining what it's like to live in China to someone and it's like explaining a dystopian cyberpunk novel, but with a level of surrealism and just plain absurdity. A Gibson novel filtered through some Philip K. Dick. You have a gigantic surveillance state with unprecedented reach and control...banning people from referencing a cartoon bear. You have a society with an extremely sophisticated cashless economy——b…

I can also explain America like an absurd dystopia: druggies shooting up on the street while highly compensated techies scoot around their shit, windows getting broken on cars every week while plastic straws are banned. It's called the complexities of the world.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#133

Post by dang »

ridewinter wrote: post #28

No, it’s an article by and for anyone with western values. You know, the values that resulted in 99% of the innovations in this world.

Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological or nationalistic flamewar. Such discussions are all the same: predictable and nasty. We're hoping to avoid them here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20132749 and marked it off-topic.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#135

Post by whatshisface »

polskibus wrote: post #123
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #105

I was explaining what it's like to live in China to someone and it's like explaining a dystopian cyberpunk novel, but with a level of surrealism and just plain absurdity. A Gibson novel filtered through some Philip K. Dick. You have a gigantic surveillance state with unprecedented reach and control...banning people from referencing a cartoon bear. You have a society with an extremely sophisticated cashless economy——b…

Maybe it's because in reality cashless is easy compared to clean water and no pollution for masses?

Cashless is also not desired by Americans, many of whom like cash. Stores are fine with taking it (no transaction fees after all), there are zero privacy concerns, and counterfeiting is not really a problem.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#136

Post by pishpash »

idlewords wrote: post #64
chvid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think China take will the path to democracy most other democratic nations have taken including my own: As the middle class eventually grows big enough it will demand and get political influence ultimately creating democratic institutions (formal freedom of speech, parliaments, elections, referendums) as we have it in the west. It is easy to focus on a single news story and forgetting that China is a much freer soci…

By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago.

China is big, so it ebbs and flows depending on who's in power.

Two steps forward one step back. In the last ten years, more people have travelled, studied, or learned about the world than ever before. The people running the show will die one day, that's not representative of what will happen. It's what the people think that determines what will happen. What the younger generations have experienced in their personal lives will translate to what they want for society, and that's my measure: the younger people are much freer in their personal lives than those 10 years ago. They know what they want, and one day they will get it.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#137

Post by freewilly1040 »

whatshisface wrote: post #135
polskibus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because in reality cashless is easy compared to clean water and no pollution for masses?

Cashless is also not desired by Americans, many of whom like cash. Stores are fine with taking it (no transaction fees after all), there are zero privacy concerns, and counterfeiting is not really a problem.

Square recently released an infographic that supports this:

https://squareup.com/us/en/making-change

(I work for square but wasn’t involved with this project)

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#138

Post by whatshisface »

vorpalhex wrote: post #121
tempguy9999 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy i…

Democracy will never be as stable as a regime or dictator, but it can also survive a lot more chaos and instability while still protecting the rights of its people. A stable system does not mean a robust one. A tea cup on a counter is stable, but easily broken. A spinning top is not very stable but can survive most falls.

Dictatorships aren't stable, dictatorship is stable. Dictatorships involve bloody power strugges that ruin the country and kill people. Dictatorship usually remains, though, because the replacement government is usually another dictatorship - ensuring that when it in turn falls, even more people will die.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#139

Post by pishpash »

komali2 wrote: post #30
Cypher wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how long it's going to be before we see WhatsApp and the surveillance state articles.

I dunno. We're not anywhere near the level of China (here in the USA). To achieve that, we'd need 1. The fourth estate to become a government agency (functionally) 2. Facebook to have government agents on-site that employees have to follow the orders of 3. The existence of a "department of cultural well-being" with total authority to regulate art, media, news, etc 4. Laws on the books outlawing esoteric orwellian con…

The question is not how far removed you are, but do you believe human nature is the same and therefore you are capable of becoming the same. In the US there is a strong constitutional tradition against certain encroachments, yet all evidence points to the people accepting the same erosion even with those safeguards.

You might be willing to stand in front of the Capitol (or so you say), but not so for most people, especially given the right "patriotic" motivation, poverty, or fear.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#140

Post by free652 »

theseadroid wrote: post #113
NicoJuicy wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. And when we talk about China = all the stuff that has been going on lately, comments here are not pro Xi mostly.

Thank you for being curious. What I found offending on HN is people who are cool-headed within their own domain can be irrational and quick to conclusions when it comes to issues related to China. We all know the project management tree swing cartoon[1]. We can almost replace the project with China within this cartoon lol. 1. http://www.zentao.pm/file.php?f=201712/f_2a1ca764ce384a33d05... edit: I read some of your ot…

At least I can read about the Belgium's incident and people in Belgium can protest feeely. That wouldn't happen in China, that's the difference between a first world country and China
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