I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project • Hacker News Board

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#181

Post by aeturnum » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #71

olliej wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

Because if you file a lawsuit with a signed contract, you probably get a summary judgement and can put a lien on the income of the other party. If you file a lawsuit without one you get to testify in court about what each party said and who knows where it ends.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#182

Post by rrix2 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #179

qafy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you aren't comfortable with that you better not use any fintech apps like Cash App, Venmo, Wealthfront, Robinhood, any Intuit products, etc. These services use Plaid (like this app does) or similar APIs like Quovo, Yodlee, etc. Even financial institutions themselves like Citi Bank, American Express, Chime, PayPal, etc use these APIs to link your accounts. And to be clear, the app itself never has access to your cr…

Well of course I won't use anything like that! I find it mind-boggling that people even consider giving a third party their bank account login+password. It's like saying "yes, I want to be robbed of all my money, please take these credentials and spread them forth to whichever leaked data pile they might end up in". My bank considers transactions done using login credentials to be final. There is no recourse if someo…

Which bank implements OAuth?

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#183

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #71

olliej wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

> If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

What does this mean? The contract is valid absent payment.

A contract has to have consideration for both parties to be a valid contract, but a promise of payment is a perfectly valid consideration and would make the contract valid.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#184

Post by praneshp » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

pysxul wrote: post #143

robot wrote: post #140

Never thought about building an app with Plaid, cool. It's also a good example to play with react native.

This might affect your decision: "Plaid Deletes GitHub Issue Exposing Imitation of Bank Login UIs" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20133806

Clickbait headline warning for that, btw.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#185

Post by plotteddancer16 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

futureastronaut wrote: post #83

lenova wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a freelancer, always get a 50% upfront payment before starting a project.

I much prefer billing by hours/days with clear payment terms in the MSA, and iterative delivery,. Clients understand that if they don't pay, they're not going to get much. Project-based estimates with up-front payment probably is good for clients unfamiliar with software development processes, but I avoid projects like those.

What about something like $10k up front and then you invoice for the hours past that?

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#186

Post by kentrado » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

paulsutter wrote: post #171

finkin1 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the person who produces the work produces generally owns the code until they are paid. Obviously it depends on the specifics of the signed agreement, but I'm curious why you think the client owns the code by default?

I’ve never seen a contract like that, have any examples?

It's the copyright law. You own your work, all rights are reserved until by means of a license you give it away.

No payment would invalidate the license.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#187

Post by slartibardfast0 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

rrix2 wrote: post #182

jwr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course I won't use anything like that! I find it mind-boggling that people even consider giving a third party their bank account login+password. It's like saying "yes, I want to be robbed of all my money, please take these credentials and spread them forth to whichever leaked data pile they might end up in". My bank considers transactions done using login credentials to be final. There is no recourse if someo…

Which bank implements OAuth?

Every bank in the EU will have to have it or near equivalent very soon under the EU’s Payment Services Directive 2 which mandates API based access to accounts.

Sandboxes are already available under reasonable terms for many banks in for example Ireland.

*edit, first word

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#188

Post by lawtalkinghuman » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #71

olliej wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

You have a contract at the point of agreement, not at the point of payment.

The question is really whether it is IP transfer on final payment or not. If the contract specifies IP is transferred only on final payment, then the developer keeps all IP until that point.

Now, something like building a website, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense why this matters. If the person doesn't pay, they may not get the source code you've written, and they may not have the technical chops to deploy or use it. But think about a design agency instead.

Client hires a design agency to come up with a brand identity, logo etc. Client agrees to their standard terms - 50% upfront, remaining 50% on completion. They start work and come up with a few ideas. Client asks for a few changes, but they soon broadly settle on a design style. Before the agency gets to the point of completing all the deliverables, the client cuts off contact and does not pay. They're now in breach.

But, they think, we've got the logo, we don't need all the other stuff the agency were going to do. We're fine with the logo, and we're not going to pay. They can go to court, and the court might say "well, you paid 50%, you are entitled to the part performance before the breach". They might look at the design agency and conclude "they're not going to sue us, they're tiny and lawyers are expensive" and decide the risk of the breach makes it worthwhile.

There's also completely innocent scenarios you could imagine that lead to the breach: perhaps the working relationship breaks down. Perhaps the design agency don't answer the client's emails for a week and they refuse to pay.

But if the agency had 50% upfront AND IP transfer only on final payment, then if the company decide to reuse the work, they can't try and argue "well, part payment entitles us to part performance", plus you have a viable cause of action against them for breach of copyright violation in addition to breach of contract.

IP transfer on completion makes it clear what happens in the case of breach (which reduces legal uncertainty), and it increases the cost to the client of breaching, which hopefully has something of a deterrent effect.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#189

Post by jotm » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

seba_dos1 wrote: post #78

ygra wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea behind the thing seems to be to initiate a wire transfer (which cannot be refunded as easily as direct withdrawal) and provides the merchant with an immediate confirmation of the same. I've never used Sofort for pretty much that reason that they want your online banking credentials and then automate stuff behind your back. I've sometimes used giropay, though, which does the same, only directly through your b…

This is ridiculous. In Poland, everyone implements online wire transfer with immediate confirmations by either: - using a service like PayU or Przelewy24 that have accounts in every major bank (in-bank transfers are immediate), use bank API to initiate the transfer and provide a confirmation to the merchant when the money arrives on their account (they often allow manual or post-office transfer as a fallback, and Bli…

It's ridiculous how much of finance works on trust in some countries. It is mind boggling my easy for someone in the UK to steal someone's identity for the purposes of applying for credit cards and loans, and people happily give away their names, addresses, dates of birth, anything for random stuff like winning an iPhone or whatever.

No way anyone's ever getting my bank credentials, even though anything important is approved by phone. It's like giving someone the keys to your home and cash safe, and telling them to be careful with it please :)

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#190

Post by anarsdk » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

rrix2 wrote: post #182

jwr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course I won't use anything like that! I find it mind-boggling that people even consider giving a third party their bank account login+password. It's like saying "yes, I want to be robbed of all my money, please take these credentials and spread them forth to whichever leaked data pile they might end up in". My bank considers transactions done using login credentials to be final. There is no recourse if someo…

Which bank implements OAuth?

Most of the nordic countries in Euruope do through an entity called Nordic API Gateway.

https://docs.nordicapigateway.com/