New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It • Hacker News Board

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#21

Post by rolltiide » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #18

rolltiide wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are obvious answers, likely interrelated older devs had to go into management to keep their career trajectory, no matter whether they liked coding or management more. the ones that failed in some way - meaning a disruption in their spending and earning capability - are the only ones on the market trying to get programming jobs, and complaining about it. fixing the earning trajectory in a programming track helps…

> older devs had to go into management to keep their career trajectory, no matter whether they liked coding or management more. This just implies they like keeping their career trajectory more than coding.

yes, money. life changes that required more money to maintain their current or desired standard of living. expectation of life changes that required more money to maintain their current or desired standard of living. expectation of generational wealth if their inheritance or lack thereof doesn't already accomplish that for them.

did I really need to spell that out? I know some people can't relate, but its not clear to me how much they can't relate

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#22

Post by Hermitian909 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #4

I just don't understand the bias. I'm too young to have experienced age discrimination like this yet, but its obvious at least to me that the best developers and hell, leaders, that I've worked with were all a part of older generations. Is it a shortcoming in pay for all these people? I feel like being out of work for 3 years would definitely lower whatever standard of pay I had prior to becoming unemployed. I just d…

The reasons age discrimination happen are fairly complex (and I'm not ready to write all the ones I understand out), but to your point about the best in the field being part of the older generation, it is my anecdotal experience that top performers don't seem to have problems with employment as long as they can work (generally). My own mother was exceptional in her field, thought not so much as to be written about, and continued to get job offers out of the blue years after illness had robbed her of the ability to work or even speak, purely off reputation. Her friends and colleagues that I've spoken to have had similar experiences as they've retired having lead similarly successful careers.

Of course, by definition, most people aren't exceptional or even in the top 10% and our society unfairly (and unwisely) punishes them for getting older.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#23

Post by lallysingh » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #18

rolltiide wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are obvious answers, likely interrelated older devs had to go into management to keep their career trajectory, no matter whether they liked coding or management more. the ones that failed in some way - meaning a disruption in their spending and earning capability - are the only ones on the market trying to get programming jobs, and complaining about it. fixing the earning trajectory in a programming track helps…

> older devs had to go into management to keep their career trajectory, no matter whether they liked coding or management more. This just implies they like keeping their career trajectory more than coding.

They like paying their mortgage and providing for their families more than coding.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#24

Post by ajcodez » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

Young people have more variable potential. If you hire a young person they might be 100x or 10x or 1x in a couple years. If you hire an old person you already know they aren’t 100x or 10x otherwise they would be above you in the org chart or retired. There’s nothing wrong with 1x, but preference for young people is common sense all else being equal. And it’s never equal in terms of salary expectations and extra effort.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#25

Post by epc » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

Am 52. Served as IBM’s “corporate webmaster” in the 1990s (sort of like being CTO but without the cool executive hat). Corporate Webmaster was responsible for all technical operations of IBM’s corporate sites (from systems administration to application development), as well as theoretically responsible for all IBM web sites. As well as serve as the single point of contact inside IBM for anything “internet”.

Have been mostly unemployed since leaving IBM in 2001, other than a few short stints with NYC area startups.

To F100 corporate organizations I was too “internet” and claimed far too much experience than possible (circa 2002), to startups I was (and apparently am) too conservative, too corporate.

And yes, I tried the non–profit track. Every non–profit I interviewed with decided that I was clearly going to drop them as soon as I could reacquire a job in corporate America.

I’ve found other ways to make money instead of being employed by others.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#26

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #19

scarface74 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None. I don’t live on the West Coast and that seems to be mostly a west coast thing. According to all of the local salary surveys and anecdotal information that I’m getting from recruiters, former managers, and former coworkers, I’m slightly on the right side of the bell curve for architect/principal engineer, etc. Not bragging, the salary and cost of living is well below the west coast. My last job where I thought I…

Interesting. What region do you live in, and how do you think your bottom line compares to what you’d see in a comparable role in the Bay Area? I’m not really architect / principal level just yet (probably 3-5 years of continuous improvement from that I would say), but I feel like I’m just barely getting ahead as a senior making $200k paying $2300/month in rent with no hope to buy and about a 40-60 minute commute (de…

Metro Atlanta GA.

My commute is 30-40 minutes depending on traffic and we just bought a 3000 square foot 5 bedroom/3.5 bath house + a large office, new build in a great school system for $335K with 5% down. Our mortgage all in is a little less than $2100/month.

The most senior hands on developers/individual contributors/team leads can make between $130K-$160K. Even with that, it leaves more than enough to max out a 401K, and have enough fun money to do most of the things we want.

But like I said, just from talking to hiring managers over “informal lunches”, there are positions for overpriced “digital transformation consultants”, “enterprise architects”, etc. where you can get $200K and live in a lower cost of living area as long as you live near a major airport.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#27

Post by emit_time » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

Anecdote: My dad (finance/accounting guy) lost his job in his 40's and was never able to find another one.

Thankfully my mom makes enough for things to work out, and they own a piece of rental property, and my dad stashed away a lot of money for retirement while he worked (to the dismay of my mother).

Additionally, the company I work at is half (or more) people hired straight out of college which kinda makes me feel weird. It's a small company that has been around ~15 years or so, and I feel like their hiring practices would lead to their ass getting handed to them in court.

I like the people I work with, but something definitely feels wrong.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#28

Post by invalidOrTaken » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #5

Seen on Mastodon (not me): >Whenever I hear "We need more programmers! Make more young people interested in programming! Teach programming at kindergarten!" I always get the urge to ask "What did you do with the old ones you had?" >Where are all those programmers you hired 5-20 years ago? Why is no programmer at your company older than 40? Why do you have senior software engineers that are 25 years old? What did you…

My own commentary on this:

I've been consulting the last few months, mostly brought in to coach CTO's. I'm (somewhat unwillingly) coming to the conclusion that nobody really feels like they know how to manage programmers.

This leads to mismanagement, and nobody likes being mismanaged, (also it usually means you're being underpaid), so devs eventually wise up and get out. If you think about it, this is a natural extension of the "the best code is no code" ethos.

The best situations I've seen are programmers-managing-programmers. I've been lucky in my career to work for multiple "engineer-turned-founder" types, and these have felt the most "aligned."

I suspect that MBA programs should start including a CS component.

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#29

Post by bojo » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

ajcodez wrote: post #24

Young people have more variable potential. If you hire a young person they might be 100x or 10x or 1x in a couple years. If you hire an old person you already know they aren’t 100x or 10x otherwise they would be above you in the org chart or retired. There’s nothing wrong with 1x, but preference for young people is common sense all else being equal. And it’s never equal in terms of salary expectations and extra effor…

Advancement is typically a pyramid, which means not everyone can reach the top. It is impossible for everyone to “be above you in the org chart or retired.”

Re: New Evidence of Age Bias in Hiring, and a Push to Fight It

#30

Post by ajcodez » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

bojo wrote: post #29

ajcodez wrote: post #24

Young people have more variable potential. If you hire a young person they might be 100x or 10x or 1x in a couple years. If you hire an old person you already know they aren’t 100x or 10x otherwise they would be above you in the org chart or retired. There’s nothing wrong with 1x, but preference for young people is common sense all else being equal. And it’s never equal in terms of salary expectations and extra effor…

Advancement is typically a pyramid, which means not everyone can reach the top. It is impossible for everyone to “be above you in the org chart or retired.”

You made my point better than I did. “Not everyone can reach the top.” Young people have had fewer opportunities to reach the top. Not being at the top is a negative signal that gets stronger every year.