WeChat and the Surveillance State • Hacker News Board

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#101

Post by tempguy9999 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

theseadroid wrote: post #74

komali2 wrote: post #38

I used to hold a kind of naive hope that the ham fisted Party would eventually be replaced with democracy. I remember back in 2011 my friends that were placed in moderately distinguished positions were sending their kids to Canada to collect foreign dual citizenship, fully expecting the collapse of the PRC in their lifetime. But now I think the Party is too good at maintaining itself. It's augmented by technology lik…

Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As a Chinese who emigrated because of the many social problems of China, I'm not sure switching to democracy right now will be beneficial for regular Chinese. You've all heard stories about how bad mannered Chinese tourist…

> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs?

As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy is mainly the result of cheap energy which removed the hardscrabble existence of our ancestors and will go when cheap energy finishes (if we don't pull our socks up).

It's a contentious point, I'm not sure it's right, and I'm not punting for china. Just raising a question.

NB my father was born and raised in a military country with an oppressive government. Hearing some stories from him is why I know how fortunate I am.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#102

Post by komali2 » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

theseadroid wrote: post #88

komali2 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you and understand you, but your argument is essentially nullified by the existence of Taiwan. We have proof positive that the Chinese culture is not only compatible with democracy, it flourishes beneath it.

I'm not saying Chinese culture is incompatible with democracy. I'm talking about eduction mainly. If you look into post WWII histories of Taiwan/South Korea, it wont be hard for you to find a few dictators within the democracies[1]. I personally think during those periods the citizens of those democracies were catching up on how democracy works. 1. examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wik…

Could not fantastic education provide an intelligent enough population to handle democracy within a single generation? I.e.... exactly what happened in Taiwan upon the removal of martial law?

The USA managed it swaths of the country spread across a frontier.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#103

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

jimclegg wrote: post #75

idlewords wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago.

>By no measure is China a freer society today than it was 10 years ago. That's debatable but we know for a fact the USA was freer 10 years ago.

That is not the subject though

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#104

Post by theseadroid » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #98

theseadroid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As a Chinese who emigrated because of the many social problems of China, I'm not sure switching to democracy right now will be beneficial for regular Chinese. You've all heard stories about how bad mannered Chinese tourist…

Different question, when we talk about China ( which is mostly incompatible with Western as superpower, because of the differences between society and disruption through state capitalism). I am always a little bit concerned about how it comes across for a Chinese person, because I do not want to offend them. And most of my points are about Xi's rule ( and actually somewhat cautious about it going globally). Can you e…

Sorry but I think your first paragraph is not complete? when we talk about China () then?

Generally speaking I wont get offended as long as the discussion is rational and logical. Me personally dont care much about country or patriotism. But Chinese are like any other populations, each individual can be quite different.

I'm not really in the loop of what is happening now but I do think sometimes only (trade?) wars can resolve unbridgeable misunderstandings.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#105

Post by _hardwaregeek » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

I was explaining what it's like to live in China to someone and it's like explaining a dystopian cyberpunk novel, but with a level of surrealism and just plain absurdity. A Gibson novel filtered through some Philip K. Dick. You have a gigantic surveillance state with unprecedented reach and control...banning people from referencing a cartoon bear. You have a society with an extremely sophisticated cashless economy——beggars will take WeChat Pay——yet no clean water and horrible pollution.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#106

Post by theseadroid » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #99

jimclegg wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its a bit premature, but do you really think China under a democratic system would be better for the world? What would Chinese populism look like when it eventually emerges given more democratic features? Are you sure we are ready for a Chinese Trump? and for the silent majority of China to dictate foreign policy? I'm from the school of "be careful what you wish for".

We have a competent Chinese Trump today in the form of xi jinping - the difference being instead of being limited to merely separating children the children of Other from their Parents and throwing them in jail, Jinping is directing the wholesale imprisonment and "reeducation" of entire religions, and occasionally just taking their organs from them. I'll take a democratically elected trump that is gone in at most 8 y…

have you talked to any Chinese people and how many of them oppose this reeducation of entire religions? I'm just curious whether that will still happen in your planned democratic China.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#107

Post by adventured » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #97

komali2 wrote: post #38

I used to hold a kind of naive hope that the ham fisted Party would eventually be replaced with democracy. I remember back in 2011 my friends that were placed in moderately distinguished positions were sending their kids to Canada to collect foreign dual citizenship, fully expecting the collapse of the PRC in their lifetime. But now I think the Party is too good at maintaining itself. It's augmented by technology lik…

It'll be fine as long as people in bulk are reasonably happy, which equates to the economy doing well which allows china's economy to look and feel good. " look and feel " because there seem to be many proper economists (I'm not) that see china's economy as a facade hiding junk. When we get the big bubble pop which seems to be hastening in, their people may start to feel a lot less comfortable. We'll see then what ha…

Reuters has been running an interesting series of stories on the topsy turvy economy inside of China, focused on Henan:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-prope...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-consu...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-henan-socia...

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#108

Post by yorwba » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:25 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #77

pishpash wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use it for what it's intended for, chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence. If you have genuine thoughts, use something else.

Easy to say, but hard to do when the people who you genuinely value your relationship with don't use anything else. It's also not intended for "chitchatting about nothing of lasting consequence". It's specifically intended to basically be your entire life. In China you can pay all your bills, manage your bank account, buy plane, train tickets, hotel reservations, donate to charities, rent bikes, shop online, order fo…

Another possible explanation would be a system to combat viral content before it spreads too far (i.e. after a link has been shared a few times). You'd probably need to do a few more experiments to determine what triggers it with certainty. That said, I'm interested what those "interesting" keywords were, exactly.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#109

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

theseadroid wrote: post #104

NicoJuicy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different question, when we talk about China ( which is mostly incompatible with Western as superpower, because of the differences between society and disruption through state capitalism). I am always a little bit concerned about how it comes across for a Chinese person, because I do not want to offend them. And most of my points are about Xi's rule ( and actually somewhat cautious about it going globally). Can you e…

Sorry but I think your first paragraph is not complete? when we talk about China () then? Generally speaking I wont get offended as long as the discussion is rational and logical. Me personally dont care much about country or patriotism. But Chinese are like any other populations, each individual can be quite different. I'm not really in the loop of what is happening now but I do think sometimes only (trade?) wars ca…

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

And when we talk about China = all the stuff that has been going on lately, comments here are not pro Xi mostly.

Re: WeChat and the Surveillance State

#110

Post by theseadroid » Sat, Jun 08, 2019, 7:27 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #102

theseadroid wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying Chinese culture is incompatible with democracy. I'm talking about eduction mainly. If you look into post WWII histories of Taiwan/South Korea, it wont be hard for you to find a few dictators within the democracies[1]. I personally think during those periods the citizens of those democracies were catching up on how democracy works. 1. examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wik…

Could not fantastic education provide an intelligent enough population to handle democracy within a single generation? I.e.... exactly what happened in Taiwan upon the removal of martial law? The USA managed it swaths of the country spread across a frontier.

But you have to admit there are risks for the switching, i.e. there are countries that become worse after the switching. Personally, I dont think democracy is the cure to the current problems. Education probably is. And I haven't been presented with enough evidence to think otherwise.

Like, did Taiwan become drastic better after removal of martial laws? Or is Taiwan at a better position today mainly because of the help of U.S.? Is there any other third world democratic countries that have developed as fast or faster than China, who is NOT a U.S. ally?