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I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

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Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#71

Post by thaumasiotes »

olliej wrote: post #56
trillcyborg wrote: post #37

Hey guys its cool to see that you like my project. Unfortunately these types of things happen to independent contractors often and theres not a whole lot you can do about it but learn from mistakes. I used some awesome tech for the first time in this one like react-native-web which is now in Expo and react-spring for those sexy animations. Im happy for any of you guys to use this project as a boilerplate, learn some…

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid

Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#72

Post by jamessb »

nostrademons wrote: post #19
vzaliva wrote: post #2

INAL but even if you did not get paid does not automatically means the result of work for hire belongs to you. If you are a contractor this is a smart thing to explicitly stipulate in the contract.

Also NAL, but my understanding is that if no "consideration" (something of value) changes hands, the contract is null and void. This is why people sell things for $1 instead of giving them away, or why executives take $1 salaries instead of working for free. Thus, if he really never received anything of value for the work, it's as if the contract never happened, and ownership of the IP remains with the person who cre…

I would check with a lawyer in your jurisdiction before assuming that non-payment voids the contract. See, for example, the judgement in this UK case:

> Finally, although the First Assignment records both that Mr Dichand and Dr Spaziante were to receive one US dollar as consideration for the assignment of the PCT Applications and further records that they both acknowledged receipt of the dollar, it was never paid by HTI. Mr Edenborough argued that as a consequence the contract was void for lack of consideration. I think the consequence is that Mr Dichand and Dr Spaziante may or may not have a claim against HTI for an outstanding debt of 50 cents each.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/IPEC/2018/1142.html

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#73

Post by zdragnar »

TuringNYC wrote: post #50
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also NAL, but my understanding is that if no "consideration" (something of value) changes hands, the contract is null and void. This is why people sell things for $1 instead of giving them away, or why executives take $1 salaries instead of working for free. Thus, if he really never received anything of value for the work, it's as if the contract never happened, and ownership of the IP remains with the person who cre…

How does this prevent a tricky client from paying a nominal $1 (far below whatever was promised) and again throwing the ownership in limbo?

I imagine you then go to small claims court for breech of contract. Since the client made an effort to pay, but failed to pay the agreed amount, any judge will side with you.

Depending on how payment in the contract was stipulated, you could also refuse partial payments. If it did go to court, I don't think a judge would find that an offer of $1 counts as a good faith effort on behalf of your client.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#74

Post by sgentle »

vzaliva wrote: post #2

INAL but even if you did not get paid does not automatically means the result of work for hire belongs to you. If you are a contractor this is a smart thing to explicitly stipulate in the contract.

There are two reasons why that does not make a lot of sense.

Firstly, the term "work for hire" refers to a quite specific situation where the copyright for work you create is not held by you as an individual but by the company employing you. It does not apply to contract work except for a very limited set of circumstances, such as work done for motion pictures in the USA.

Secondly, it is difficult to understand how exactly the client could come to hold any rights over code that they didn't pay for. If you have a contract saying "I'll do X if you pay me $Y" and they don't pay you $Y, you don't have to do X. Even if the contract had some kind of farcical "we still own everything even if we don't pay" language, that's about as meaningful as a clause promising that leprechauns are real. A contract is an agreement in which there must be consideration (ie, something of value) for both sides. What value is there in doing work for free?

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#75

Post by perennate »

TuringNYC wrote: post #50
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also NAL, but my understanding is that if no "consideration" (something of value) changes hands, the contract is null and void. This is why people sell things for $1 instead of giving them away, or why executives take $1 salaries instead of working for free. Thus, if he really never received anything of value for the work, it's as if the contract never happened, and ownership of the IP remains with the person who cre…

How does this prevent a tricky client from paying a nominal $1 (far below whatever was promised) and again throwing the ownership in limbo?

In the case that parent comment is alluding to, the contract would promise $1.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#76

Post by jjeaff »

ThePadawan wrote: post #58
Animats wrote: post #41

This thing wants the password for your bank account? WTF? That's way more than it needs. Enough info to authorize an ACH transfer, maybe. But the login password for your bank account? No way. That voids Bank of America's security guarantee.[1] If you provide info for an ACH transfer, and the other party abuses that info, it's reversible. If you provide login info and the other party abuses that info, it's not. [1] ht…

Well, the fact that banks traditionally allow reverting fraudulent transactions is becoming more and more of a unique selling point. So it would seem obvious that they want customers to give out their passwords so they become victims of fraud, only to then learn that the bank has excellent fraud protection (contrary to let's say cryptocurrencies). That is pure speculation of course. Hanlon's Razor would suggest "bank…

Banks allow reverting fraudulent transactions because it is required by law. In the US at least.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#77

Post by camjohnson26 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #71
olliej wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?

The expectation of payment is legally binding

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#78

Post by seba_dos1 »

ygra wrote: post #59
eecc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German online payment system called Sofort wants the same... ( https://www.klarna.com/sofort/ ) The instructions asked me to provide account, card number and OTP login code... then it’s just a matter of scraping all my past 10 years transactions and keep the session alive to snoop on exactly how many condoms I buy... Criminals

The idea behind the thing seems to be to initiate a wire transfer (which cannot be refunded as easily as direct withdrawal) and provides the merchant with an immediate confirmation of the same. I've never used Sofort for pretty much that reason that they want your online banking credentials and then automate stuff behind your back. I've sometimes used giropay, though, which does the same, only directly through your b…

This is ridiculous. In Poland, everyone implements online wire transfer with immediate confirmations by either:

- using a service like PayU or Przelewy24 that have accounts in every major bank (in-bank transfers are immediate), use bank API to initiate the transfer and provide a confirmation to the merchant when the money arrives on their account (they often allow manual or post-office transfer as a fallback, and Blik too)

- using a service like Blik, which is directly integrated with the bank

- using bank APIs directly

The first option is basically as wide-spread as credit card support; direct withdrawals pretty much don't exist there. A service that would ask for your banking login data and OTPs is unthinkable for me.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#79

Post by paulddraper »

burlesona wrote: post #43
Animats wrote: post #41

This thing wants the password for your bank account? WTF? That's way more than it needs. Enough info to authorize an ACH transfer, maybe. But the login password for your bank account? No way. That voids Bank of America's security guarantee.[1] If you provide info for an ACH transfer, and the other party abuses that info, it's reversible. If you provide login info and the other party abuses that info, it's not. [1] ht…

Yes, but this is increasingly common in online services. Reputable services like Wealthfront also work like this, requiring your bank login to work. The fact that Plaid has their entire business built around providing “bank logins as a service” speaks to that. I don’t like it either, but I’m not sure how you could get archaic banks and low-tech consumers to adopt something better.

Same with Mint or basically anything else.

Re: I didn't get paid, so I open-sourced my client’s project

#80

Post by rambo4 »

trillcyborg wrote: post #37

Hey guys its cool to see that you like my project. Unfortunately these types of things happen to independent contractors often and theres not a whole lot you can do about it but learn from mistakes. I used some awesome tech for the first time in this one like react-native-web which is now in Expo and react-spring for those sexy animations. Im happy for any of you guys to use this project as a boilerplate, learn some…

Never start working without a 75% advance payment, which should cover all costs with a small profit
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