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Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

theguardian.com

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Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#141

Post by DuskStar »

jdm2212 wrote: post #136
JeremyBanks wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google status quo circa 2016 was the worst of all worlds. Political discussion was tolerated up to a point, but the point was ill-defined, and (naturally) enforcement tended to be based on how many people disagreed with your opinions. Generally , more liberal employees could get away with much broader and more aggressive proclamations than more conservative employees (not sure if that's still true), but that wasn…

It wasn't totally random. They were mostly ok with assholes as long as they were good engineers -- my manager and skip-level manager were two of the ten or so loudest far-left types at the company. But both were very good engineers, and my manager actually got promoted even while devoting a substantial amount of time to antagonizing random people on mailing lists and G+. I remember one guy though who was far-left, ve…

Can you think of any obnoxious right wing people who survived any length of time? Not even far-right, just further right than the nationwide center.

Without that, it sounds like either left-wing activists are far more common at Google, that right-wing activists are afraid to act in similar ways, or that Google enforces such policies in an ideologically slanted manner. (My bet would be on all three)

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#142

Post by Ericson2314 »

bongobongo wrote: post #61
Ericson2314 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atomation does fundamentally change this, even if it's only by a little so far.

Automation shifts labor; it does not eliminate it.

Sometimes that happens, but why always? And that's a bug not a feature in my book to the extent it is true.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#143

Post by Ericson2314 »

billy_beef wrote: post #42
Ericson2314 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atomation does fundamentally change this, even if it's only by a little so far.

Perhaps, but someone still has to build and maintain the automation, no?

Oh sure, but as many people as before?

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#144

Post by geodel »

DuskStar wrote: post #141
jdm2212 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't totally random. They were mostly ok with assholes as long as they were good engineers -- my manager and skip-level manager were two of the ten or so loudest far-left types at the company. But both were very good engineers, and my manager actually got promoted even while devoting a substantial amount of time to antagonizing random people on mailing lists and G+. I remember one guy though who was far-left, ve…

Can you think of any obnoxious right wing people who survived any length of time? Not even far-right, just further right than the nationwide center. Without that, it sounds like either left-wing activists are far more common at Google, that right-wing activists are afraid to act in similar ways, or that Google enforces such policies in an ideologically slanted manner. (My bet would be on all three)

> left-wing activists are far more common at Google,

Yes, and I think this is common knowledge. Good place to look is Code of Conducts for all kind of technical groups. Their language is pulled straight from identity politics of left.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#145

Post by skinnymuch »

StevePerkins wrote: post #8
heer4it wrote: post #3

These companies are so huge and such an integral part of society that they need to be made more accountable to the public, and forcing them to be more accountable to their workers is part of that. I think the recent proposal to require employee representation on the board of directors of $1B+ companies is a good start.

On Day One, the entire workforce of every company becomes "contractors". Labor does not have the leverage in most industries as it does in large tech. Even in tech it is cyclical. Younger readers here, who missed out on the 2001 and 2008 crashes, are going to have an eye-opening experience when the next recession gets here.

You can’t just be a contractor. There’s rules for who is a contractor. No one except the smallest companies would be able to get away with it.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#146

Post by thundergolfer »

fyoving wrote: post #74
busterarm wrote: post #54

Google also recently terminated the maintainer of the republicans@google list.

No politics talk at work seems to be the rational and only solution here.

That stance means everyone just has to abide by whatever invisible political ideology permeates the company. Most typically, that’s unfeeling “man in a gray suit” corporate capitalism.

Where you work, who you work with, and what you do, it’s all political.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#147

Post by CodiePetersen »

jm4 wrote: post #135
CodiePetersen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm a moderate libertarian and the "don't tell them what to do, society's hidden hand will decide" is an argument used by libertarians frequently and one I disagree with. One, specifically for this case, the issue at hand doesn't affect the user's. Two being a global company, quitting at Google will just open a slot that they need to fill and they have plenty of people lining up for the job. So really any sort of…

I dislike Google the company as well as their products. If someone wants to break them up then you’ll find me smirking on the sidelines when it happens. But how do you talk about breaking up Google without addressing Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.? They basically all compete in the same markets. What are you going to do? Break up Google and let one of the others take their place? Break them all up? Then wha…

Well, I actually mention other "too big to fail/drop" tech companies. All four that you mention I think fall under that category. A lot of tech companies touch everything. Google isn't just a search engine company, its AI, it's telecommunications, its software, its hardware. It's not a vertical monopoly its a horizontal one. The same with several of the others you mention. So of course they are going to "compete" with one another. But it's actually not competition if you think about it.

Apple hardware specifically only works with Apple stuff for example. Microsoft back in the day was getting all sorts of crap for not allowing removal of of IE and other anti competitive practices. But today we see whole business built up around even more egregious anti-competitive practices. That's not competition that's literally a new market. I think that what has happened is that tech has exploded so rapidly and our congressional members (in the US) so out of touch with the tech industry that many of these companies operate mostly unhindered. This is a new age where thoughts can be typed up on a computer and the very next day you can start defining the future. Just look at bitcoin, barely 10 years old and already as the market cap of a small nation's GDP.

When a company's actions directly impact the well being of a nation, either economically, physically, socially, or politically, it is the government's job to step in and ensure that the best course of action is taken to protect citizens. We setup farming subsidies to ensure predictable quantities of food are available for the population at predictable prices. When oil and steel were vital for our nations growth, we broke them up and invented laws to ensure that no single entity could influence the health of the nation. I happen to believe we just need to break them up. They have enough products that each can become their own companies. Now I might be wrong, this is kind of a new situation, but we do have to do something, I think that is pretty clear. But I don't think normal market forces will fix this by itself.

I do agree with what you are getting at though, it is messy and there are a lot of unknowns. What I don't agree with though is that it can just be ignored by switching to another product or service and it will go away.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#148

Post by ahartmetz »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #108
erinnh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look into work councils. Its one solution that does work. Employees are elected by all employees to represent them in the council. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

I have some experience with work councils in Germany and they have some significant downsides, including for employees, that we need to be honest about. Yes, employees get credible representation at the most senior levels of management, but that comes at a cost. My experience may not be universal but from what I gather it is representative. First, works councils are strongly biased toward the organizational status qu…

Sounds like your company wasn't familiar with how to handle a works council and treated it as an annoying necessary evil. AFAIU works councils are not supposed to be handled like that. They are supposed to be an integrated part of management, so them blocking something after a decision has been made just won't happen. If you do it that way, they won't like you.

The usually decent working relationship between management and works council is part of unions not being seen as petty (e.g. "employee X is strictly forbidden to do work Y even for a second, consequences be damned") and greedy here in Germany. Wal-Mart tried union busting here and it didn't go well at all.

All that being said, a well handled works council is probably going to slow down a company, but not after decisions have been made as you described. It is also going to help make better decisions sometimes.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#149

Post by 0815test »

geodel wrote: post #144
DuskStar wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of any obnoxious right wing people who survived any length of time? Not even far-right, just further right than the nationwide center. Without that, it sounds like either left-wing activists are far more common at Google, that right-wing activists are afraid to act in similar ways, or that Google enforces such policies in an ideologically slanted manner. (My bet would be on all three)

> left-wing activists are far more common at Google, Yes, and I think this is common knowledge. Good place to look is Code of Conducts for all kind of technical groups. Their language is pulled straight from identity politics of left.

Not sure why this comment is controversial? Let's be clear here, you can agree with the broader goals of a CoC while still thinking that the language being used in many such "codes" is highly problematic, unprofessional and prone to equivocation and abuse.

Re: Google Walkout Organizer Claire Stapleton Resigns

#150

Post by PunchTornado »

wbronitsky wrote: post #139
PunchTornado wrote: post #138

I don't get what she's on about. that the guy who led Android received some millions? really? he should have received billions. larry page screwed him over by offering only 50m and he said himself he felt guilty. and all of this for an alleged assault that was never proved, only labelled credible after an internal investigation? feel bad for the guy, he developed the most popular os and is not a billionaire.

And I don’t get what you’re on about! This comment is amazingly emblematic of how shitty and toxic the comments have gotten on this site. You dismiss outright the story of someone you could easily research, all for some pet pity party for some Google exec? Not only is this incredibly lazy rhetoric but it serves literally zero purpose other than to make you feel good about not understanding the reasons other people ma…

the google exec who started android and then led it until it was installed on 2b devices. and he received only a couple of millions for that while whatsup and instagram founders are billionaires many times over.

is the issue that he received millions instead of billions? if that's it, I'm behind her.

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