I left the ad industry because of data tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#191

Post by edmundsauto » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

somatic wrote: post #101

everdrive wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then I found myself in a rabbit hole of Tuskegee experiments, Operation Northwoodses, MKULTRAs, human-animal hybrids, and so on. These things aren't interrelated, or even very similar.

Sure they are: they’re all things which normal people wouldn’t do to other people, and in which the perpetrators weren’t punished. And by “normal people wouldn’t do to other people”, I mean “stark raving mad”.

Are you familiar with Hannah Arendt's book, Eichmann in Jerusalem? The narrative is that the Nazi regime was comprised of completely normal people. She then examines what the implications are in a world where perfectly normal people perpetrate the Holocaust.

One addendum, it's worth keeping in mind the base rate for these awful gov't incidents you mention. If you only see the bad things, you have subconscious blinders (Kahneman's "What You See Is All There Is"). Try thinking about MKULTRA or Cuba or Tuskegee in relation to (much larger quantity and impact from) positive things the government does, like international aid, or emergency services provided by the Coast Guard. Responses to earthquakes in poor countries, our military is there. Vaccinations, food drops, all kinds of things that the gov't does that are good.

You have to consider these things holistically to get a good picture, otherwise I agree it's very easy to rabbit hole down a conspiracy path. And it's attractive -- it means "you get it" while other people dont -- but it's not an accurate representation of the whole, which makes it a bad model to allow to fester in your mind.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#192

Post by rrrx3 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

username444 wrote: post #112

jccalhoun wrote: post #40

What are they doing with all this data tracking because it sure isn't giving me relevant ads. In addition to the often noted situation where you buy something online and then get ads for that thing you already bought, I routinely see totally irrelevant ads and recommendations. I've been on Facebook since around 2003. I've had an Amazon account for even longer. Their ads and recommendations for me are terrible. Two re…

Facebook isn't targeting you. The advetisers are. Facebook's real sin is a garbage UI meant to confuse advertisers into spending money on audiences that don't align with the advertiser. Google is much, much worse with this. The bid system means that the Christian Asians didn't do a good targeting job, and nobody else found you valuable enough to bid on, so the Christian Asians won the bid. You got served a penny ad b…

I work in Ad Tech. This is on target.

The user was lumped into a poorly-constructed lookalike audience because of some stretched interest similarities.

What you're experiencing is the confluence of two distinct issues:

1. The CTRs on digital advertising are dropping YoY. People DO NOT click on ads, even if they are saliently targeted. There are enough trash ads out there, there's so much malware and malfeasance in the ecosystem, that it's worthwhile for users to at best _ignore_ and at worst (for advertisers) _to block ads totally_.

2. The desire to target people that match specific criteria is rising because of misguided notions throughout the advertising and marketing industry. This has driven the entire industry to push machine learned modeling to find each and every set of eyeballs out there to try and justify spend, instead of offering worthwhile and valuable offers that compel consumers to interact. You have entire systems constructed on the notion that the more people you get an ad in front of, the more valuable it is, and agencies and trading desk operators that are looking at this as the sole KPI to focus on, to the detriment of everyone involved.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#193

Post by parliament32 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

oarabbus_ wrote: post #188

jorams wrote: post #167

At some point companies like Fast Company have to accept that they are a significant part of the problem, and just writing articles about it is not enough. This page contains a ridiculous number of trackers. The site pulls in content from the following 3rd-party domains: s.skimresources.com, sb.scorecardresearch.com, secure-cdn.mplxtms.com, z.moatads.com, ml314.com, secure-us.imrworldwide.com, www.googletagservices.c…

Yikes. What's the word for this? It's not exactly "hypocritical", but it is in that realm.

Nah, hypocritical is exactly the right word.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#194

Post by jimbob45 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

rrrx3 wrote: post #192

username444 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook isn't targeting you. The advetisers are. Facebook's real sin is a garbage UI meant to confuse advertisers into spending money on audiences that don't align with the advertiser. Google is much, much worse with this. The bid system means that the Christian Asians didn't do a good targeting job, and nobody else found you valuable enough to bid on, so the Christian Asians won the bid. You got served a penny ad b…

I work in Ad Tech. This is on target. The user was lumped into a poorly-constructed lookalike audience because of some stretched interest similarities. What you're experiencing is the confluence of two distinct issues: 1. The CTRs on digital advertising are dropping YoY. People DO NOT click on ads, even if they are saliently targeted. There are enough trash ads out there, there's so much malware and malfeasance in th…

It sounds like what you're saying is that online ads are becoming less and less effective due to customers getting trained to ignore/block ads. However, companies are responding by attempting to improve their ad targeting instead of facing the reality that online ads aren't effective anymore.

What will happen in five years when advertisers have to face the reality through numbers that online ads don't work anymore?

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#195

Post by jhookham » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

SPGWhistler wrote: post #124

This is fear mongering. I work in the ad industry as well - and I can promise you - 99% of the companies in the ad industry are NOT leading the way when it comes to tracking you and your data. They are incompetent and can barely do their jobs. Just take a look at any display advertising for belly fat ads and you know for sure they aren't targeting you. The 1% however (Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Facebook) ARE t…

This sounds a little too far in the other direction to me. From working with a handful of advertising platforms interested in the web property that I've worked with for the past 8 years, I agree with your point re: incompetence. However, I disagree that it's _only_ the big boys who are gathering large portfolios of data on individuals that span multiple web properties, apps and spheres of data. It seems to me that your data is part of the marketplace and anyone can play.

Regulations would be nice. A technological solution that fundamentally obfuscates an individual so that they can buy their groceries without being big-brothered would nicer.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#196

Post by parliament32 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

mihaifm wrote: post #74

jccalhoun wrote: post #40

What are they doing with all this data tracking because it sure isn't giving me relevant ads. In addition to the often noted situation where you buy something online and then get ads for that thing you already bought, I routinely see totally irrelevant ads and recommendations. I've been on Facebook since around 2003. I've had an Amazon account for even longer. Their ads and recommendations for me are terrible. Two re…

Watched some Youtube yesterday, it kept showing me the same freaking ad for like 20 times in a row. Sometimes I get the same 2-3 ads for weeks at a time. Not sure what's the idea, if you're going to show ads at least make it a barable experience, it's almost as if they're trying to trigger some breaking point.

Same experience, it's not clear if it's just one advertiser blowing a lot of cash at once, or Google deciding I really need whatever product, but man oh man when I hit one of those ad loops it puts me off of that product forever.

The most recent was Grammarly, for about a month straight 80% of the video ads Youtube showed me were the same two Grammarly ads going back and forth. I'm not sure why Google decided that I really need to fix my grammar... but I know sure as shit I'll never have anything to do with Grammarly, ever.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#197

Post by parliament32 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #90

vmurthy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious given that I have an Ad-blocker for most websites and am not on FB. How do you even see ads? Have FB et al found a workaround for ad-blockers?

Facebook spends a lot of time making it hard to block ads on their site. I have turned off adblocking for the site because it is often ineffective for me and sometimes breaks things on the site.

If you're turning off adblocking, you're letting them win.

Get a better adblocker and keep your lists up to date. For a site like FB any site breakage will be fixed in the lists almost immediately.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#198

Post by jiveturkey » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

SPGWhistler wrote: post #124

This is fear mongering. I work in the ad industry as well - and I can promise you - 99% of the companies in the ad industry are NOT leading the way when it comes to tracking you and your data. They are incompetent and can barely do their jobs. Just take a look at any display advertising for belly fat ads and you know for sure they aren't targeting you. The 1% however (Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Facebook) ARE t…

Agree with you 100% until the end:

> It is the data collectors - Google - Apple - Facebook. They are the irresponsible parties at fault.

Like you say, targeted ads (revenue generative purposes) are not the problem. They are in fact neutral-to-beneficial. It's government surveillance that is the problem.

To say that FAG are the problem is wrong. FAG are motivated by revenue, and operate in first-world (corrupt, but only economically corrupt [for our purpose]) regimes. They will absolutely protect their data from misuse. When they misstep, they get backlash and take corrective action. When the make mistakes, they actually learn from them. Not because of the slow but heavy hand of government, but because of highly reactive market pressure.

So we don't have to worry about them, they are not irresponsible. Google and Apple, eg, does not sell your data to the bad guy, not directly. They sell access to demographics that they only know and they have strong internal controls. Google is f'ing crazy the way they protect data, and I mean from internal abuse. Even in the face of GDPR, does your startup do anything to protect PII from internal abuse? No. Yes, FB has sold direct access to "you" but they have learned and will continue to learn and be subject to public/market pressure.

Who we have to worry about are the people that are not on our radar as first-world elite HN readers: governments. Snowden was revelatory that even our own [US] government is dangerous, to a degree that dwarfs anything FAG does.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#199

Post by lame88 » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #77

kgwxd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant ads were never the goal, it's just the least creepy sounding excuse for spying.

What is the goal then, for profit seeking advertising companies like Google and Facebook?

Easy, it just means advertising doesnt cover everything. The fact that they know so much about you is valuable in itself and they can sell access to that data, for example... to cambridge analytica. Advertising is just one of the ways in which corporations exploit information to manipulate people’s behavior.

Re: I left the ad industry because of data tracking

#200

Post by PretzelFisch » Fri, Jun 07, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #194

rrrx3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in Ad Tech. This is on target. The user was lumped into a poorly-constructed lookalike audience because of some stretched interest similarities. What you're experiencing is the confluence of two distinct issues: 1. The CTRs on digital advertising are dropping YoY. People DO NOT click on ads, even if they are saliently targeted. There are enough trash ads out there, there's so much malware and malfeasance in th…

It sounds like what you're saying is that online ads are becoming less and less effective due to customers getting trained to ignore/block ads. However, companies are responding by attempting to improve their ad targeting instead of facing the reality that online ads aren't effective anymore. What will happen in five years when advertisers have to face the reality through numbers that online ads don't work anymore?

I think you will see the online ad-bubble pop, and probably then next recession because of it.