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Languages of India

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Re: Languages of India

#241

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

kranner wrote: post #240
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, it was supposed to be rhetorical. It's a borrowing from Portuguese, so by the standards yumraj seems to be employing it shouldn't count as Hindi. Likewise, निश्चित certainly isn't Hindi in this narrow sense. It's a direct borrowing from Sanskrit, not a native, inherited word of the language. And Hindi (हिन्दी) itself isn't a Hindi word; it's Persian (likewise Hindu ).

Sorry, I didn't realise it was rhetorical. If we discount direct borrowings from Sanskrit, I guess there would be very little left. Something like Pali, essentially.

No, the core of Hindi is inherited, ultimately from something like 'vulgar Sanskrit', not borrowed from Sanskrit. So like the core of Italian vocabulary is inherited from (vulgar) Latin, though there are of course also direct borrowings (at later dates) from Latin into Italian.

So 'fire' in Hindi(/Urdu) is āg (आग), but 'fire' in Sanskrit is agni (अग्नि), which has also been borrowed into Hindi (as the name of the god of fire; or fire in ritual contexts). Now, āg descends from agni, but represents the natural linguistic development into Hindi.

Re: Languages of India

#242

Post by kranner »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #241
kranner wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't realise it was rhetorical. If we discount direct borrowings from Sanskrit, I guess there would be very little left. Something like Pali, essentially.

No, the core of Hindi is inherited, ultimately from something like 'vulgar Sanskrit', not borrowed from Sanskrit. So like the core of Italian vocabulary is inherited from (vulgar) Latin, though there are of course also direct borrowings (at later dates) from Latin into Italian. So 'fire' in Hindi(/Urdu) is āg (आग), but 'fire' in Sanskrit is agni (अग्नि), which has also been borrowed into Hindi (as the name of the god…

That's why I said Pali, or something like Pali. Pali words seem like they are vulgarised Sanskrit words.

Fire in Pali is 'aggi'. Seems a plausible link between 'agni' and 'aag'.

Re: Languages of India

#243

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

kranner wrote: post #242
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the core of Hindi is inherited, ultimately from something like 'vulgar Sanskrit', not borrowed from Sanskrit. So like the core of Italian vocabulary is inherited from (vulgar) Latin, though there are of course also direct borrowings (at later dates) from Latin into Italian. So 'fire' in Hindi(/Urdu) is āg (आग), but 'fire' in Sanskrit is agni (अग्नि), which has also been borrowed into Hindi (as the name of the god…

That's why I said Pali, or something like Pali. Pali words seem like they are vulgarised Sanskrit words. Fire in Pali is 'aggi'. Seems a plausible link between 'agni' and 'aag'.

Well, Pali is a sort of standardised form of Middle Indo-Aryan, so, yes.

But you suggested there would be very little left. Yet the core of both Hindi & Urdu is (unsurprisingly) inherited from Vulgar Sanskrit>(some sort of) Prakrit>Apabhramśa>... , so it's rather a lot of vocabulary that's there.

Re: Languages of India

#244

Post by rurban »

For the movie industry it's a challenge, but they settled for 5 languages to target. Remember, the Indian movie industries are the biggest in the world, by far outnumbering Hollywood or porn.

So they have English as lingua franca (mostly as repeated short statement to get the point to non-native speakers), but it's not a target language.

1. Hindi as dominant by the biggest industry from Mumbai (lot of trash movies, comparable to Hollywood).

2. Tamil from Chennai (much more political, having the more famous directors, but kinda ridicolous fashion styles).

3. Bengali from Kalkutta (very European, radical, cynical).

4. Telugu (Chennai, now Hyderabad) and I have no idea about the fifth. Is the a Punjab film industry? There are two more south Indian smaller industries, but the south combined (Tamil, Telugu, Malalayam, Kennada) has a market share of 50%, whilst in west you only hear about Bollywood with its musicals. Take that Hollywood.

Re: Languages of India

#245

Post by neuralzen »

z3phyr wrote: post #201
neuralzen wrote: post #2

When I visited Himachel Predesh I stayed a few days in a remote Himalayan village named Malana, sometimes referred to as "The Village of Taboos" due to all of the rules they have, largely concerning outsiders. Outsiders are not allowed to touch a Malanan person, touch or enter a building, or even speak the village language even if the outsider know some of it. They also claimed to be the world's oldest continuous dem…

"The descendants of Alexander's armies" is a pretty common trope across Northern India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and parts of Iraq. I doubt all the claims though Coming back to Malana, the language they speak, Kanashi, is not an Indo-European language in roots but rather a Sion-Tibetian one.

True, although they do seem to actually have the world's oldest continuous democracy, from what I've read. Could give some credence to their other claim.

Ethnologue mentions this fact too, in the comments, although they got the religion wrong, so take it with a grain of salt (they are not Hindu, but worship a god named Jamul, who's will is interpreted by an Oracle. But they are very adamantly not Hindu). https://www.ethnologue.com/17/language/xns/

Re: Languages of India

#246

Post by [deleted] »

viewtransform wrote: post #52
vishnugupta wrote: post #20

The diversity in general in India is mind boggling which most of Indians take for granted. Be it terrain, climate, language, culture, food, etc., And all the above change noticeably every 200KM or so such that you will find more similarities between Delhi and Lahore (different countries) than Delhi and Bangalore. It's a miracle that India manages to function as one country.

The West expected India to be a failed state within a decade of independance. There were 584 princely states and hundreds of linguistic, religious and cultural minorities to integrate within one country. Compare India to Yugoslavia which broke up violently along ethnic lines or to Sri Lanka which had a bloody civil war that lasted 25 years. Or the division of Pakistan into Bangladesh along racial and linguistic lines…

[deleted]

Re: Languages of India

#247

Post by kranner »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #243
kranner wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I said Pali, or something like Pali. Pali words seem like they are vulgarised Sanskrit words. Fire in Pali is 'aggi'. Seems a plausible link between 'agni' and 'aag'.

Well, Pali is a sort of standardised form of Middle Indo-Aryan, so, yes. But you suggested there would be very little left. Yet the core of both Hindi & Urdu is (unsurprisingly) inherited from Vulgar Sanskrit>(some sort of) Prakrit>Apabhramśa>... , so it's rather a lot of vocabulary that's there.

You’re right, my sloppy remark was incorrect. Is there any reading you can recommend in this area, anything that may come to mind easily?

Re: Languages of India

#248

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

kranner wrote: post #247
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Pali is a sort of standardised form of Middle Indo-Aryan, so, yes. But you suggested there would be very little left. Yet the core of both Hindi & Urdu is (unsurprisingly) inherited from Vulgar Sanskrit>(some sort of) Prakrit>Apabhramśa>... , so it's rather a lot of vocabulary that's there.

You’re right, my sloppy remark was incorrect. Is there any reading you can recommend in this area, anything that may come to mind easily?

For the more modern vocabulary issues (borrowings from Persian, Perso-Arabic, English, Portuguese etc.) in Hindi/Urdu, I would recommend the introduction to

(1) Christopher Shackle & Rupert Snell. 1990. Hindi and Urdu since 1800: a common reader. New Delhi: Heritage Publishers.

[which is actually now freely available online at https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/46072 (had I known, I would have linked it earlier/higher in the thread, since it's very relevant) its bibliography is also good for further reading]

For the earlier development of modern Indo-Aryan languages from Sanskrit:

(2) Jules Bloch (ed. & translated by A. Master). 1965. Indo-Aryan from the Vedas to modern times. Paris: Adrien-Maisonneuve.

For a good general overall (including history and other things) to Indo-Aryan languages:

(3) Colin P. Masica. 1991. The Indo-Aryan languages. Cambridge: CUP.

In Hindi (modelled on S.K. Chatterjee's The Origin & Development of the Bengali language [written in English!]):

(4) Tiwari, U.N. 1961. हिंदी भाषा का उद्गम और विकास [hindī bhāṣā kā udgam aur vikās]. Prayag, Allahabad: Bharati Bhandar.

Another great (free, online) reference is the Digital Dictionaries of South Asia (including non-Indo-Aryan languages of India as well) at: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/ (perhaps esp. including Turner's A comprehensive dictionary of Indo-Aryan languages: https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/soas/ ).

[Some of the other references can be found 'freely' online in pdf form in the usual 'dark' corners.]

Re: Languages of India

#249

Post by p1esk »

marton78 wrote: post #220
p1esk wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why some countries (like India) have so much diversity, while others (like Russia) have so little...

Well, India has a history of for millennia, whereas Russia is way younger.

Maybe, but I think Russia got less diverse with time.

Re: Languages of India

#250

Post by kranner »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #248
kranner wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, my sloppy remark was incorrect. Is there any reading you can recommend in this area, anything that may come to mind easily?

For the more modern vocabulary issues (borrowings from Persian, Perso-Arabic, English, Portuguese etc.) in Hindi/Urdu, I would recommend the introduction to (1) Christopher Shackle & Rupert Snell. 1990. Hindi and Urdu since 1800: a common reader . New Delhi: Heritage Publishers. [which is actually now freely available online at https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/46072 (had I known, I would have linked it…

Wow, wow. This information is greatly appreciated, many thanks.
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