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Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

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Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#131

> Evergreen Public Schools in Washington state, for example, started using the company's service this school year. Between September and mid-March, the system flagged more than 9,000 incidents in the 26,000-student district. The overwhelming majority-84 percent-were for minor violations, such as profanity. The fact that the system even monitors for profanity at all tells me its purpose has a lot more to do with stude…

As a Washingtonian I'd like to defensively point out that Evergreen School District is in the part of the state with all the idiots and measles.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not dense. These people consider that kind of stuff perfectly acceptable because they have a world view in which living in totalitarian society is acceptable. Their world view simply does not align with yours or mine. They simply do not consider the use these kind of systems to be fundamentally incompatible with free society the way you or I do.

> These people consider that kind of stuff perfectly acceptable because they have a world view in which living in totalitarian society is acceptable. Except they don't. The moment the totalitarian society started to demand conformance to something they don't like, you can be sure they would object.

That's...literally everyone who supports totalitarian and authoritarian states. They support it because they share its values, and they like that those values are enforced.

Nobody goes "well they put my ma in the gulag, but I still agree with them politically"

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#133
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is really weird to want to educate your own children.

I see the appeal of that, but I think most of us think that the school experience is necessary for proper socialization of the kids. Personally I think that most schools are akin to prisons in many ways, but they were also the place where I forged some lifelong friendships.

The problem is that the public school environment is not reflective of real social engagement at all. You aren't forced to spend years with the same people without recourse like you are as a child, your time is not controlled as astutely, and your options to disengage with people you don't like is nonexistent.

Its why school bullies often end up totally dysfunctional in adulthood and end up drug addicts, because they can't compel anyone else to be around and stay around them while they are abusive. Some "luck out" and can find someone emotionally damaged enough to exploit, but then they just abuse an already damaged person in near isolation - there isn't a "cool wife beaters club" for them to hang around at the mall with.

You largely get to choose your peers in adulthood. Sometimes that means you have to live somewhere else, find a different job, maybe even move to a different city or state to escape an incompatible culture. But having that choice alone radically changes the dynamic enough that all the "tough skin" and social paranoia you have to develop to survive most public education systems is inapplicable and often harmful to have in adulthood.

Women develop a thick skin just to endure years of spousal abuse. Men don't express themselves and develop deep psychological complexes and overwork themselves to the point of self harm.

The public school environment is a far cry from an optimal environment to develop social skills in. I'd go as far as to argue it contributes somewhat to why the top post on HN right now is an 800 comment thread about pandemic loneliness. You don't get to deviate in public school much - either the authorities will punish it or your peers will ostracize it. And kids learn to cope the same way abuse victims do by suppressing the bad feelings and developing resultant mental illnesses and lifelong emotional complications.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can have zero tolerance for bullying and harassment, without 100 surveillance You absolutely, positively, cannot have that. Bullying is an all day every day thing with children. Especially boys. The only way you prevent it all the time is to never leave boys alone in a group with no monitoring or supervision. Edit: If you are downvoting or disagreeing with this, you are part of the absurdly unreasonable expecta…

This is a highly sexist view. Girls are just as merciless, often moreso, but will often stick more to psychological abuse. You can ignore this bullying all you want, but it is the new tactic for a few decades now. The bully doesn't have to touch their target. They just need to psychologically abuse them until they get a physical reaction out of their target. Then zero tolerance comes in and the target is punished. Th…

You can teach your kid to resist psychological abuse. Physical abuse is more challenging - often the only real option is to push back in self-defense, which can be quite problematic.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#136

> Evergreen Public Schools in Washington state, for example, started using the company's service this school year. Between September and mid-March, the system flagged more than 9,000 incidents in the 26,000-student district. The overwhelming majority-84 percent-were for minor violations, such as profanity. The fact that the system even monitors for profanity at all tells me its purpose has a lot more to do with stude…

As a Washingtonian I'd like to defensively point out that Evergreen School District is in the part of the state with all the idiots and measles.

"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#137

"The local Brazosport Independent School District had recently hired a company called Social Sentinel to monitor public posts from all users, including adults, on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media platforms. The company's algorithms flagged Lafrenais's tweet as a potential threat. Automated alerts were sent to the district's superintendent, chief of police, director of student services, and director of guidan…

140 alerts in 8 months is about one alert every 1.7 days.

The Brazosport Independent School District has over 12k students and 800 teachers. I'd expect 12k students are Tweeting and Facebooking hundreds, if not thousands of times a day.

Furthermore, the social media monitoring, according to the article, includes adults from the surrounding community, not just people associated with the school. I can't find population stats for that, but the county that the district is in has a population over over 360k. Adults probably don't Tweet and Facebook as much as kids, but there are probably still hundreds a day from them.

It looks like only a tiny fraction of the posts generate an alert. The alerts come infrequently enough that those who receive them should easily have time to go look at them in context, which should let them quickly dismiss almost all false positives.

I've having trouble seeing what I should be upset about here.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#138
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don't generally post things publicly to allow an anonymous authority figure to compare every one of my statements against some hidden criteria of "acceptability", one which is highly likely to be skewed toward preserving the power of the person implementing it. "A member of the public ends up reading it" is reductionist. The two are more or less technically interchangeable due to the cheapness of digital monito…

>It is not like overhearing a conversation in the park, it like is hiding in the bushes with a tape recorder. It's not like that because people have a reasonable expectation that what they say in a conversation will only be heard by those in that conversation. Tweeting is the real life equivalent of standing on the table and shouting something with a bullhorn. There's no expectation of privacy there. >Total observati…

Once again, there are degrees. When addressing an open audience there is an expectation to be heard by other human beings in a social context; but neither is this an invitation to have one's thoughts algorithmically scraped and profiled and flagged for assessment by a bureaucrat somewhere. Please try to consider this in relation to the goals of natural interpersonal communication, and not under the assumption that everything legal is proper.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#139
post #4

I always lose a few magical internet points when I say this, but, if possible, avoid public schools.

And what have we learned about private institutions? But that leaves us with homeschooling...

I don't understand. Are we supposed to know that private schools are also bad?

Private schools are a form of socioeconomic class segregation and there are problems with them, but I would definitely believe that private schools are, by most metrics, better schools.

Re: Schools Are Deploying Digital Surveillance Systems

#140
post #49
post #21

To fight this, I don't think we should be talking about privacy or rights. That's all very important, but society is already fairly desensitized to that language, and the pro-surveillance side can literally point to the dead bodies of real children. Instead, we should be talking about how deleterious it is to the character development of our children. Among other problems, they are being demanded to conform to an inc…

That won't work either though. I can hear it now: "Well, if by 'increasingly narrow range of acceptable behavior' you mean 'not molesting the girls and refraining from committing school shootings' then maybe they should have systems like this!" You need to have some arguments not centered around the idea of behavior. Because that idea will be thrown back at you almost immediately. Behavior is exactly what these peopl…

It’s so crazy considering the kids are exhibiting the exact same behavior as their parents 20-30 years ago. Puberty isn’t new...
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