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Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

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191–200 of 299 posts

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Bounce! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce To me it's more satisfying than the idea of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

I once heard of the hypothesis that once the last proton decays, the universe will once more be completely uniform in every way. With nothing to distinguish any part of the universe from any other part, space becomes meaningless and the universe has once more entered a state of nothingness much like how it was "before" the Big Bang. So, in a sense, the heat death is not so different from the big bounce. Unfortunately…

You and your parent should definitely read Asimov's short story "The last question", if you haven't yet. Just Google for it.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#192
post #169

The start of the Universe was the start of time. My personal theory is that when matter enters a black hole, some of that matter (in some form) gets snapped out of space-time, emerging at time 0, at 0,0,0 coordinate. With all the black holes over time, all venting into the same space and time, producing lots of matter in a single space at the same start of time, which would create a big bang. Just a theory, but one I…

Slightly different but related thought: what if inside of each black hole singularity is another universe? The stuff it collects ends up in this other universe. Which would mean our universe is just "inside" the black hole of another.

Then perhaps the accelerating expansion of spacetime we detect here has something to do with the accelerating accumulation of mass of our "parent" black hole.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countered the downvote because I’m interested in this line of reasoning. Could you expand on that? Why do you think having no memory of “waking up” to existence makes it less meaningful? I'm reminded of the following quote by Alan Watts from The Way of Zen : To the Taoist mentality, the aimless, empty life does not suggest anything depressing. On the contrary, it suggests the freedom of clouds and mountain streams; w…

Not the parent, but it kind of makes sense: if a network cable has no beginning it definitely has no purpose.

That's actually a great analogy there. I will say I wasn't really vouching for that line of reasoning more than exploring my own thoughts about it and that was one route my mind went. I like to do that with deeper questions from time to time. I guess that with no..."sense of time" or understanding of our beginning we have a less accurate ideal of what our ending may be. However, there is one thing we know for certain is that we do die. At least our bodies do. What happens after that though is to be disclosed. So maybe only what we do between those two points is what matters anyways? And some may view that as if we are going to die anyways, what does it matter?

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if we have not beginning, we have no purpose. If we have no purpose, this is all really for nothing. I am not arguing whether it is or not, or whether there is a beginning, but lets look at it this way... You woke up this morning, that was the beginning of this day at night you will rest. Now, lets say there is no memory or record of 'waking up' beginning, we therefor cannot anticipate an end and everything w…

Countered the downvote because I’m interested in this line of reasoning. Could you expand on that? Why do you think having no memory of “waking up” to existence makes it less meaningful? I'm reminded of the following quote by Alan Watts from The Way of Zen : To the Taoist mentality, the aimless, empty life does not suggest anything depressing. On the contrary, it suggests the freedom of clouds and mountain streams; w…

I like that idea. I think the world is a beautiful place, and I think also that humans can be a beautiful species at the times they come together. What is that one quote? "All that wander are not lost." I believe we can find peace with our existence and mortality and its something we have to remind ourselves of that individually it is not forever, and how it will end in general is not yet perceived.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once heard of the hypothesis that once the last proton decays, the universe will once more be completely uniform in every way. With nothing to distinguish any part of the universe from any other part, space becomes meaningless and the universe has once more entered a state of nothingness much like how it was "before" the Big Bang. So, in a sense, the heat death is not so different from the big bounce. Unfortunately…

You and your parent should definitely read Asimov's short story "The last question", if you haven't yet. Just Google for it.

"You and your parent" definitely confused me for a second!

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There I was thinking that the scientific method involved falsifiable hypotheses - so how are they going to prove or disprove their respective beliefs? I'm getting string theory flashbacks where half of the physics community is into it, the other half is not, and no-one can prove anything, but they still have a grand old time arguing about it anyway.

The trouble is, unless you have a grand old time arguing vague ideas, you might not find the ideas that can lead to new falsifiable hypotheses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

Modern cosmology got kicked off in the 1700s by observations of "nebulae" that showed many of them were collections of stars, and in particular that some were much much much larger and more distant than others. Just before WW I the absorption and emission line structures of the spiral ones were discovered to be strikingly similar except the smaller (in angle) dimmer (in apparent magnitude) ones were squashed into the red.

Just after WW I is when spiral nebulae were identified as anything remotely like our modern understanding of spiral galaxies. 1920: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Debate_(astronomy) [poor Shapeley, so bright and so so wrong on this point] about five years after a working theory of post-Newtonian gravitation was even available, and almost exactly two years after General Relativity aced its first observational test in the solar system. Up to that point even the greatest names in astronomy (even Einstein) believed everything in the sky was within or in a close (~ kiloparsecs) orbit around the Milky Way.

Towards the end of WW II and just after radio astronomy became important, particularly the study of the 21cm hydrogen gas line, which was clearer than the red-squashed lines of visible light passed through prisms, and in particular different limbs of galaxies had different redshifts, proving rotation. Some three decades later, the 21cm redshift difference between the inner and outer parts of a number of galaxies showed that there is non-Newtonian gravitation obviously at work in large galaxies. (Also coincidentally around that time, the cosmic microwave background was discovered, but it was some years before the small anisotropies in it could be studied -- BOOMERaNG and COBE in particular to start with).

The evidence in all these cases arrived in advance of vague ideas, and forced the hunt for tractable explanations for the evidence in its totality, rather than as individual stand-alone pieces. One of the biggest pieces to fit in is of course the highly successful standard model of particle physics, which also was driven by evidence arriving kinda by surprise somewhat concurrently with surprise evidence from cosmological observations.

The result is the "concordance cosmology", \Lambda-CDM, which concords with all the available data (well, or rather it's updated as new data shows up from various observatories and experiments). It's certainly subject to speculation: what's the microscopic description of dark matter? is the cosmological constant actually uniform everywhere in spacetime? is there a non-cosmological-constant term required to match new data for the Hubble flow? These are pretty big questions, but they're forced on us by the in-your-face obviousness of the metric expansion of space, and the peculiar motions of galaxies within clusters, and the outer parts of galaxies around the inner parts. Also, what's going on in "the dark ages"? We have an obvious gap between the surface of last scattering and the first starlight, but the details of the observed first starlight and the cosmic microwave background don't interpolate as well as one would naively expect. And we have so many exabytes of data about the latter (and a lot of data about early galaxies too) that vague ideas die quick deaths: they don't even get a chance to generate new "falsifiable hypotheses", they are generally born inconsistent with some existing data.

The "trick" is abduction: trying to reason out a simple-enough-to-be-useful explanation that fits the known data.

Of course, you can get away with wild speculation and vague ideas in areas where there is little to no data at present. Anything before the electroweak decoupling is anyone's guess, as is anything much more than a trillion years in the future, or far outside the Hubble volume.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#198
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the hypothesis still that the limit as time goes to zero still exists as a part of our universe? In your analogy, is the south pole still a point contained on earth or is it just a point you can get arbitrarily close to?

> the limit as time goes to zero There is no "time" at the "South Pole" point of the universe, or sufficiently close to it. The spacetime geometry in Hawking's model is purely spacelike in that region, not split up into "space" and "time" parts the way it is now. (As I understand the model, the boundary of the "spacelike" region" is at the beginning of inflation.) > is the south pole still a point contained on earth…

That's really cool. Thanks for the explanations :D

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#199
post #192
post #169

The start of the Universe was the start of time. My personal theory is that when matter enters a black hole, some of that matter (in some form) gets snapped out of space-time, emerging at time 0, at 0,0,0 coordinate. With all the black holes over time, all venting into the same space and time, producing lots of matter in a single space at the same start of time, which would create a big bang. Just a theory, but one I…

Slightly different but related thought: what if inside of each black hole singularity is another universe? The stuff it collects ends up in this other universe. Which would mean our universe is just "inside" the black hole of another. Then perhaps the accelerating expansion of spacetime we detect here has something to do with the accelerating accumulation of mass of our "parent" black hole.

That would add an interesting spin upon multiverses. Without a doubt, black holes and understanding them are very much key to many unanswered and unknown questions.

Re: Physicists Debate Hawking’s Idea That the Universe Had No Beginning

#200
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no "before" as time itself was created with the universe.

How was time created, time means changing state, without time there is no change. So in order for a change to happen in the existence of time you'd need a further time dimension; then you're just shifting the problem up the stack. Creation of time requires a meta-universe of some sort. Though perhaps there's some other way to conceive time not existing further back than a given point that works around creation being…

Although in that case, barring any meta-universe to provide a defintion of time beyond time, time must simply be.

Or not be, but I think we can rule that one out.

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