Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

squareup.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 145 posts

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#111

Post by MaulingMonkey »

eesmith wrote: post #109
chmarr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the very specificity of the restriction, I gather that they're not copyleft-adverse. They're "Don't upload stuff that risks us being forced to divulge our closed-source code.". Without the prohibition, even if a user of the service included some AGPL libraries without Square's knowledge, a cunning lawyer could argue that Square was complicit in distributing this code to end-users and thus liable. The prohibition…

A cunning lawyer could argue anything. But, when did Square ever agree to the copyright license? Who did the actual copyright infringement? And AGPL isn't the only "must publish all your server's source code" license available, so to prohibition is too specific if that's the actual reason.

Square is bound by copyright law just as much as anyone else. Agreeing to that license is the only thing giving them permission to redistribute it in the first place.

This is why we have the DMCA safe harbor provisions - it'd be incredibly easy to be on the hook for copyright infringement as a company hosting any user content otherwise. Those safe harbor provisions aren't a blank check to knowingly commit wanton copyright infringement however, as can be seen with all the legal wrangling over Megaupload, as an example [1].

Square knows about the AGPL, knows they might not be abiding by it's terms if they redistribute AGPL code, and knows they probably don't have the right to redistribute under any other term. They can choose to knowingly possibly violate the license, or to knowingly commit copyright infringement, or to ban AGPL code. Those first two options, with that "knowingly" in there, open them up to potential legal action.

> And AGPL isn't the only "must publish all your server's source code" license available, so to prohibition is too specific if that's the actual reason.

If you make Square's lawyers aware of some of those other licenses, it wouldn't suprise me if they get banned too for the same reason. It's not like they have psychic knowledge of the existence of all licenses. Failure to audit the universe doesn't mean that's not their reason.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload#Safe_harbor_provisi...

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#112

Post by tzs »

bubblethink wrote: post #30
nabla9 wrote: post #22

This makes absolutely no sense. I'm almost certain that Square lawyers fucked up big time. They looked at the AGPL and completely misunderstood the context. There is no way in hell anyone can interpret AGPL in a way that makes Square responsible for any license violations their customers make selling software.

And even if there were liability concerns due to copyleft or other clauses in AGPL, singling out AGPL makes no sense. If they want to avoid copyleft, it should be better phrased like so.

Note: I've not looked into the details of what square is doing. This comment is on AGPL in general compared to other licenses.

It does make some sense to see AGPL singled out, because it is different from most other free and open source licenses in one major way.

Almost all other free and open source licenses only require you to distribute modified source code of a derivative work you've made if you distribute that derivative work.

If I take code under those licenses, modify it, link it with my own code, and just run the resulting derivative work on my computer, they do not require me to distribute those modifications or my code, no matter what I'm using the program for, or where from, who from, or how I get its input, or what I do with, where I send, or who I give its output.

Not so with AGPL. With AGPL, the requirement to distribute derivative works can be triggered by code running entirely on my computer if it gets its input from and sends its output to people over a network.

That's a huge difference from prior free and open source licenses.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#113

Post by woah »

LinuxBender wrote: post #86
resoluteteeth wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is about including AGPL code in a website that you have hosted by Square. They are probably worried that if AGPL code is included, this will result in Square sending it to browsers together along with their own proprietary code, which could be interpreted as an AGPL violation by Square. Honestly they are probably correct to be worried about this because it's pretty unclear whether or not it would be cove…

We have the same issue at my workplace. Legal won't let us near anything AGPL in our projects for those reasons.

That is the intent of the AGPL, right? Presumably if there was something under AGPL that was good enough, your company would open source everything so they could use it.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#114

Post by anticensor »

CydeWeys wrote: post #84
inflatableDodo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all contracts are valid.

Yeah but why in particular wouldn't this one be? There's no reason you couldn't have it be a condition of a contract that software licensed under some particular license isn't allowed. Choice of software license isn't a protected class or anything like that.

Doctrine of equality does not apply to private trade of products and services. This is not a public procurement announcement and they can disallow particular products to be used in their premises.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#115

Post by PeterisP »

nabla9 wrote: post #48
ralph84 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The restriction applies to anyone “using Square Point of Sale, Customer Engagement, Appointments or Employee Management, Square Online Store, and any associated products and services”. I’m not sure why you think it only applies to people selling software. Nothing in the terms says that.

Because it's under > Additional Point of Sale Terms of Service >3. Online Store > I. Your Content and Content Restrictions

In this context "Your Content" is not the stuff you're selling, but the content you're using to customize the store frontend.

So the clause wouldn't apply to someone using the store to sell CDs with AGPL software, but they would apply to someone using an AGPL Javascript module in the web frontend of a (Square-hosted) store that sells shiny rocks.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#116

Post by Drdrdrq »

woah wrote: post #113
LinuxBender wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same issue at my workplace. Legal won't let us near anything AGPL in our projects for those reasons.

That is the intent of the AGPL, right? Presumably if there was something under AGPL that was good enough, your company would open source everything so they could use it.

Or pay commercial license, thus supporting the project.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#117

Post by anticensor »

wyldfire wrote: post #68

> 15. use, under any circumstance, any open source software subject to the GNU Affero General Public License v.3, or greater; Note to self: create a license whose concepts/terms are similar to the AGPL but don't call it that.

MongoGPL?

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#118

Post by ksec »

nabla9 wrote: post #22

This makes absolutely no sense. I'm almost certain that Square lawyers fucked up big time. They looked at the AGPL and completely misunderstood the context. There is no way in hell anyone can interpret AGPL in a way that makes Square responsible for any license violations their customers make selling software.

I just wanted to mention I upvoted you but I disagree with you. And there are enough explanations given below your comment then I can write.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#119

Post by colejohnson66 »

yarrel wrote: post #97
floatingatoll wrote: post #95

If your operating system is AGPL3+, are you prohibited from using tools upon it to access any/all Square services for any reason? Are you in violation of every copyright agreement on your hard drive due to your failure to reconcile the AGPL3+ terms with the software licenses you are integrating with the operating system through installation and use? I can see why they would want to explicitly decline to participate i…

Those questions can as easily be asked of proprietary software with EULAs. And "infection" is a creepy way to write "compliance".

The use of the word “infection” is usually deliberate and an attempt to taint users view of GNU’s software licenses.

Re: Square’s terms of service forbid use of AGPL-licensed software in online stores

#120

Post by LinuxBender »

Drdrdrq wrote: post #116
woah wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the intent of the AGPL, right? Presumably if there was something under AGPL that was good enough, your company would open source everything so they could use it.

Or pay commercial license, thus supporting the project.

My limited understanding is that it gets substantially more complicated than that, as it pertains to 3rd party liabilities, obligations and what not. I am not a lawyer so I am not entirely sure what risks they are avoiding. Maybe it really is all about money. I just know they won't budge.
Post reply on HN