The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#411

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

sgustard wrote: post #36

codingslave wrote: post #7

I would argue that the decline of the family is directly linked to feminism, or better stated, the liberation of women from the home and from conservative sexual values. The two forces behind that are birth control and women entering the work force. These two are magnified by online dating and social media. I am not saying at all that these are bad things, just that we have yet to see the true effects of feminism on…

I always felt that my mother, as a traditional housewife, seemed rather lonely, and that she blossomed once she started working outside the home. But the social support she provided for my dad and us kids took a hit. I would argue the net effect was still a positive one for the family.

These are all anecdotes though. My mother -- who wanted to be a traditional housewife -- but, as a migrant to this country, was forced to work to support our family seemed incredibly depressed that she couldn't be at home. Once she started staying at home (by becoming a teacher, and thus getting some months off with us), she became so much happier and it was a net positive for my family. Once she retired early, it became even better, and she was just a much happier person.

Granted, my father also took a job that let him stay home most of the day, because he hated working too, so I guess we're one of the few families which seems unaffected by marketing, and instead seek what we actually want. Why in the world would literally anyone want to work a job? I feel only someone who's never worked could want to do it

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#412

Post by benj111 » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

kop316 wrote: post #391

beat wrote: post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

If I may comment as a young(er) generation (I am early 30s now): I met who I wanted to marry when I was 29, and proposed to her at 30. I think she will be fine. I honestly think your daughter having to re-settle her life to find someone who shares the same wants in life out of her will lead to longer term happiness. When I was 25, I was dating someone long term whom it was kind of similar, I adored her, but ultimatel…

"I think she will be fine"

What a ringing endorsement of your wife :)

(probably not what you meant though)

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#413

Post by cc81 » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

itsaidpens wrote: post #386

Dude, you’re their parents! Take some responsibility!

The daughter seems to be doing fine and we don't know the cause behind why is son is behaving the way he does.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#414

Post by shrimp_emoji » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #348

WhompingWindows wrote: post #2

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

Human nature is really weird. I can totally relate to everything you've written, and at the same time, I, as a father and husband, would love to experience a week like that really badly every now and then.

It shows that what people think they want is a silly, shifting goalpost and that "happiness" is an untenable, fictional concept the mind uses to distract itself on its meaningless quest to stay alive.

Insofar as it's possible, not taking your feelings or life seriously is the best tactic I've come to use. But I'm relatively young, so I might be wrong.

And it's pretty vacuous: so, what, don't act on chasing happiness? Feel lonely but act like it doesn't matter and do nothing? Try to exist in a psychologically-inert routine until you die? Yes. xDD Or, you know, do small things to improve things, but don't try too hard because it doesn't seem worth it.

(My exception to this would be superego, rather than id, shit like revolutionary action which has the potential to take you and everybody else into new maxima of well-being IN WHICH you otherwise try to exist in psychologically-inert routines until death -- because that's at least more meaningful than neurotically ping-ponging around for personal maxima of well-being. More return on stress investment.)

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#415

Post by sdegutis » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

sgslo wrote: post #277

sdegutis wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know two sisters who each got married. The older one practiced worldly prudence, courted during high school, got engaged at beginning of college, and waited almost a decade until after her fiancé graduated before they got married and started to have children. But now he can't get a job with his degree (pharmacist), she works at some retail job as a manager, and the whole family lives with her parents. He's in >$100…

I'm not sure your story proves a whole lot. By the way you phrase it, the outcome of the older sister hinged upon the husband failing to get a job as a pharmacist. If he had successfully landed a job, the outcome of your story would be very different. The same argument could be made for the younger sister. What happens when Walmart downsizes, and the husband is out of job with a background only in retail? I'm not sur…

The first couple waited almost a decade to start having a family, and accrued $100k in debt.

The second couple had a family immediately, have no debt, and are otherwise in the exact same situation as the first couple.

And the couple that had children sooner, are younger and more energetic, and also have less stressful jobs that allow them to spend more time and better quality time with them.

Also there is a real value in having the mom stay at home full time where she can teach their children their own values and guard them from bad practices or influences at such an impressionable age.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#416

Post by ronnier » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

Your daughter will be ok. She can go anywhere and immediately find social groups and have no issues finding dates — if she gets online she can literally have hundreds or thousands of men ready to take her out. It’s completely opposite for most men — isolated and hard to find social circles.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#417

Post by kelnos » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #158

kilowatt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes me sad because while they have awesome professional accomplishments, they would have been awesome mothers and parents as well. I just wanted to point out politely how strange this language reads to me. It's ultimately the decision of each person whether to have kids or not. This being "sad" for them is an overreach, morally, IMO--and part of the fight feminism led was to carve out a space for women in soci…

I have many female friends in their mid-30s and early 40s, and the ones without kids are almost always sad/regretful about it themselves. Some won't admit it, but some will, especially in more intimate settings. I've had one cry on my shoulder - she is very successful professionally, but feels she missed out on the opportunity for motherhood. Whether it was her "choice" is hard to say. Very few people get the chance…

The issue is that there's no objectivity here. Are these women actually sad because they truly wanted to experience motherhood, or is it more because of pressure (even unconscious pressure) from family and friends to have kids? Or just the built-in feelings due to upbringing that having kids is "just what you're supposed to do".

I wonder, though, if these same women did have kids, and sacrificed their career for it, would they look back and have regrets in that regard, too.

So maybe it's just... given a multitude of options where we can't choose them all, perhaps humans will just naturally have some regrets around the path(s) not taken?

As counterpoint, I know women in their 40s and older who are very pleased with their decision to not have kids.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#418

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #389

parrellel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not feminism, the establishment of the discrete nuclear family as a social and labor unit divorced from kinship groups. When you've already pared down the web of fundamental relations to 2-5 person cells, your already only a step away from complete individual social collapse. That doesn't even touch on the breakdown of community organizations (churches, fraternal orders, what have you).

> the establishment of the discrete nuclear family as a social and labor unit divorced from kinship groups. Where has the nuclear family ever been divorced from kinship groups. A nuclear family is by definition part of an extended network, because mom and dad are both parents of one nuclear family as well as children of two others. Without a strong nuclear family there is no kinship, and all nuclear families imply ex…

Many societies and cultures have large extended families living together. That is definitely not the norm in the U.S. and Canada, nor is it the case in most of Northern Europe (from what I understand).

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#419

Post by bytematic » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

vfinn wrote: post #407

beat wrote: post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

I'm sorry to say this, but the tone in your voice towards your son sounds more detached than it should in my opinion. I mean, why would you let him slip into that bleak future you're describing for him? Shouldn't you be the one to wake him up, especially if he lives under your roof. I get it if you don't believe in discipline, but I think that's what is required here (or at least fatherly guidance).

If they are mid-twenties they have probably heard it a million different times in a million different ways, what do you do?

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#420

Post by mlcrypto » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #401

itsaidpens wrote: post #386

Dude, you’re their parents! Take some responsibility!

Yes, I'd like to read a "I must have messed up somewhere". That would be a good starting point to "what can I do about it".

Yes I would say the mistake was made 20 years ago