Live data from Hacker News

YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

nytimes.com

721–730 of 744 posts

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't what I said nor what I meant. They are overstepping on the censorship front by continually constricting their "acceptable" guidelines based off of their very fluid internal rules. "In 2018 alone, we made more than 30 policy updates. One of the most complex and constantly evolving areas we deal with is hate speech" They even state it as a point of pride - they continually shift the lines on what is "hate sp…

I share your concern about how Youtube influences society, and it's likely that content I consider good will be taken down by Youtube in the future. I don't like that. But it still sounds to me like you're demanding that, after removing illegal videos, a site should either be 100% curated or 0% curated. https://www.tubefilter.com/2019/05/07/number-hours-video-upl... says: > The platform’s users upload more than 500 h…

I see what you're saying but it's already a problem for them. 100% of videos coming onto the platform will be . Instead, the discussion we're having is where they should draw the line on what gets removed. Is it videos that break the law? Or videos that they deem inappropriate? We can vote to change the law, we can't vote to change their policies. Users can go to a new platform but there is nothing close to an equivalent competitor. (Name me one popular, full time content creator who did it without YouTube)

I don't like the sound of government interference at all, trust me. However when people are being silenced and demonetized because they hold political views that YouTube doesn't like I feel that it's necessary in order to uphold the users constitutional rights. Many experts have speculated that YouTube operates at a loss - is it fair that they gain market dominance this way and then flex their power to remove ideas they don't like?

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#722
post #694

Good. Online radicalism is a thing. To all the people here who are decrying this as “censorship”, remember that during the early 2010s, Islamic radicals were getting radicalized on YouTube by pretty benign sermons (Ex: Awlaki and his “tour of Paradise” lectures that inspired Boston 2013, fort hood and a bunch of other international attacks). YouTube removed all that out and I think Muslims getting radicalized on YouT…

" Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. " What a wretched, demoralizing 118-comment subthread. A white supremacy vs. Islamic extremism cage match was the last thing we needed, and of course it hopped via WWII and Nazis to capitalism vs. communism—the mother of generic ideological flamewars, whither all retu…

I apologize. I’m just going to avoid those topics from now on.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#723
post #719
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because Jews and Gypsies weren't considered ethnically German. What defined German ethnicity? Clearly it wasn't the ability to speak the language, or being descended from many generations of ancestors living in Germany, otherwise the Jews and Roma both would have been considered German. Clearly there was something else attributed to them that didn't fit the definition of "German". It was that they weren't considere…

I'm not sure I understand your contention. Pan-Germanicism was about uniting ethnic Germans. Are you implying that there's no ethnic difference between a German and an Ashkenazi Jew or a Romani?

No, I'm saying that the way that the Nazis defined German identity was their biological model of "racial" classification, and not a cultural feature like ethnicity. The Nazis then (as today), have an explicitly biological notion of identity, not cultural.

I'm not making that up - it was right there in their laws that I linked to.

Otherwise, why shouldn't people who had been living in Germany for generations, speaking languages closely related to German (Yiddish, German Romani), be considered German?

How can you interpret those laws as being about anything but racial categorization - unless you have an agenda to sidestep and downplay the fact the Nazis repressed and murdered people whom they saw as not being part of their own presumed "race".

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is YouTube calling simply supporting Trump an extreme view?

A literal reading of their new restrictions as quoted in the article would in fact make a bunch of Trump's campaign speeches fall under the restrictions. And while I'd much rather he had not made those speeches or that people had not listened, or both, it's not clear to me that refusing to broadcast them would have been the right call either. Now very likely Youtube plans to do extremely selective enforcement. I'm no…

I don't have a problem with people pushing bigoted fear mongering narratives for attention being powerless and unpopular.

I think the truth is that big platforms that are conceivably open to anyone eventually become abused, unevenly enforced, and end up being a gamble when it comes to business. YouTube, Google play, Apple's app store and many more are all examples of this.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you banned yet? Who, me? Never. >So you think the uninformed conversations occurring in a video entertainment cesspool are more impactful than the discourse between the engineers, founders and investors that actually built, maintain, understand and operate these platforms on a day to day? That's totally absurd. You're so hung up on popularity that you seem to have lost sight of relevance. Each of those people en…

> Each of those people engaging in uninformed conversations gets a vote that matters just as much as the vote of the people that built these platforms. I agree. Getting banned from YouTube doesn't prevent you from voting. YouTube is wholly irrelevant to the civic imperative, it's just a video sharing site, yes , the most popular video sharing site on the web where people also happen to discuss politics, but its popul…

>Getting banned from YouTube doesn't prevent you from voting.

Right, it prevents you from taking part in the public political debate that tens of millions of voters are participating in.

It's like telling someone "You can't talk about your political message on this popular street corner where there are actually people to hear you. You are welcome to go stand on the street corners way outside of town, though, where practically no one is listening. Those other people are fine to spread their message on this street corner, though, because I agree with them."

There are very good reasons why we don't allow that sort of thing on street corners. The very same reasons apply to the major social media platforms.

>this site has catered to an audience that is wealthy and well-connected relative to the YouTube audience and the political discussions on this site have a ripple effect in the tech community and thus the tech industry and people's livelihoods.

Ah, so middle/low class people should grovel to the elites that gather here, even though those people don't share their interests, and hope that they somehow convince elites to act against their own interests, and do some ripple effect thing on behalf of people that have interests opposed to theirs.

>My only point here is to illustrate that "popular" doesn't necessarily mean "important".

And you've forgotten not everyone has the same interests. If some low skilled workers feel that some policy is driving down their wages, they're not going to go grovel to a bunch of engineers who probably want their wages to go down so they get cheaper vegetables.

People want to be heard by people that have, or may have, similar interests to them.

>The primary function of the site is a business built around video entertainment,

So? The primary function of sidewalks is so people can walk on them.

>just because some fraction of the site's users decided to have political discussions on YouTube doesn't mean that the fundamental nature of YouTube has changed into something that should now be owned by the commons.

Right, it's the fact that said fraction represents a huge number of people.

>The creators and owners of YouTube still have rights to, and creative control over the product they created, even if that control resulted in a blatantly partisan culling of political content.

Subject to the limits that the government puts on that control.

>If YouTube's behavior displeases the people they should seek redress with the platform's owners or abandon it.

"Feel free to go talk on that street corner a mile outside of town. Only people who say things we like can talk on this one."

You really think that's going to be satisfactory?

>The reasoning you describe is a strange kind of mob tyranny where a corporation becomes obligated to give up creative control over its products because a bunch of people decided to start squatting political banners on the front lawn.

When you become "the commons", you lose some of your "creative control". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#726
post #723
post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand your contention. Pan-Germanicism was about uniting ethnic Germans. Are you implying that there's no ethnic difference between a German and an Ashkenazi Jew or a Romani?

No, I'm saying that the way that the Nazis defined German identity was their biological model of "racial" classification, and not a cultural feature like ethnicity. The Nazis then (as today), have an explicitly biological notion of identity, not cultural. I'm not making that up - it was right there in their laws that I linked to. Otherwise, why shouldn't people who had been living in Germany for generations, speaking…

The point I was making above was that Nazis were concerned about German-ness (well, Aryan-ness) not whiteness. Classifying them as white supremacists is generally incorrect.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I share your concern about how Youtube influences society, and it's likely that content I consider good will be taken down by Youtube in the future. I don't like that. But it still sounds to me like you're demanding that, after removing illegal videos, a site should either be 100% curated or 0% curated. https://www.tubefilter.com/2019/05/07/number-hours-video-upl... says: > The platform’s users upload more than 500 h…

I see what you're saying but it's already a problem for them. 100% of videos coming onto the platform will be . Instead, the discussion we're having is where they should draw the line on what gets removed. Is it videos that break the law? Or videos that they deem inappropriate? We can vote to change the law, we can't vote to change their policies. Users can go to a new platform but there is nothing close to an equiva…

> However when people are being silenced and demonetized because they hold political views that YouTube doesn't like I feel that it's necessary in order to uphold the users constitutional rights.

User's have no constitutional right to political speech on a private platform. Their rights are not being violated.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#728
post #726
post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm saying that the way that the Nazis defined German identity was their biological model of "racial" classification, and not a cultural feature like ethnicity. The Nazis then (as today), have an explicitly biological notion of identity, not cultural. I'm not making that up - it was right there in their laws that I linked to. Otherwise, why shouldn't people who had been living in Germany for generations, speaking…

The point I was making above was that Nazis were concerned about German-ness (well, Aryan-ness) not whiteness. Classifying them as white supremacists is generally incorrect.

The problem with that argument is that the Nazis considered the German "race" to be the paragon of "whiteness", and other less-German white peoples, like European Jews, to be degraded. They absolutely conflated "whiteness" with their idealized German identity.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right of free speech is that you can say what you want without violent repercussions, such as fines, prison time, or capital punishment. This is merely one view of free speech; many people actively disagree with this view. You can't take a contested human-defined concept like freedom of speech and say "this only means X, case closed." I mean, you can, but nobody has to agree with you.

The view that free speech should protect you even from the most trivial consequences like being banned from a private platform is completely unreasonable and ridiculous. Doesn't matter that there are people that hold that opinion, that's a weak argument for it.

> the most trivial consequences like being banned from a private platform

You say these consequences are trivial, but they may not be trivial for every individual. A number of individuals have been banned from multiple platforms, including their revenue streams and parts of the financial system, seriously damaging them financially. Even when I disagree with the individuals being banned, something about this strikes me as wrong. It should not be possible to mount a coordinated attack on an individual's financial stability like this. The boogeyman of the moment is the right, but this will surely be turned against individuals on the left the next time we go to war, or perhaps the next time left-populism seems to be gaining serious ground.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each of those people engaging in uninformed conversations gets a vote that matters just as much as the vote of the people that built these platforms. I agree. Getting banned from YouTube doesn't prevent you from voting. YouTube is wholly irrelevant to the civic imperative, it's just a video sharing site, yes , the most popular video sharing site on the web where people also happen to discuss politics, but its popul…

>Getting banned from YouTube doesn't prevent you from voting. Right, it prevents you from taking part in the public political debate that tens of millions of voters are participating in. It's like telling someone "You can't talk about your political message on this popular street corner where there are actually people to hear you. You are welcome to go stand on the street corners way outside of town, though, where pr…

> Right, it prevents you from taking part in the public political debate that tens of millions of voters are participating in.

I don't think that's true, but even if you could prove it, it doesn't matter. You should not be entitled to use YouTube just because its popular and people discuss politics there.

> You can't talk about your political message on this popular street corner where there are actually people to hear you

Bad analogy. YouTube is not a public street corner, it's a private business and platform that you don't pay to use. It's more like saying you can't talk about your political message inside a popular tavern because the owners have decided they are not friendly to the political message. That is not a violation of your rights, that is how private property works. I get that you don't like it, but its their property and its a non-essential service, even if its very popular.

> Ah, so middle/low class people should grovel to the elites that gather here

Wow. That's a very disingenuous reading of what I wrote. I didn't say anything resembling that, AT ALL, I even explicitly stated that my only point there was to demonstrate that the popularity of a site doesn't necessary correlate with its political importance, but you still managed to twist it into a completely ridiculous strawman. Since you're arguing in bad faith I see no reason to continue wasting my time trying to have a conversation.

Have a nice day.

Post reply on HN