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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#371

Post by teach »

pmilla1606 wrote: post #364
TimTheTinker wrote: post #192

I think this is great, but at the same time, auto-installing homebrew ought to be an option (perhaps enabled by default) when installing the “XCode command line tools”. Better yet, offer a “developer setup” app that sets up the command line tools, homebrew, iTerm2, updated bash/zsh, and more. Apple would do best to pave the cow paths developers have already worn into macOS, especially when it comes to command line ut…

I know this isn't exactly what you're talking about but I've found it invaluable: https://github.com/atomantic/dotfiles It's a script that installs all kinds of useful stuff and sets some - in my opinion - nice options. I just recently started a new job and I had a brand new Macbook Pro up and running (as in: ready to start working) in less than 30 minutes. A good tip is to fork it and modify it to your liking. At a…

So the ironic part is this script would no longer work after these deprecations because installing Homebrew requires a Ruby interpreter[0].

Obviously these things are fixable but a whole lot of people are going to have to do a lot of work to workaround having _no_ scripting languages installed by default on a fresh Mac.

[0]: https://github.com/atomantic/dotfiles/blob/master/install.sh...

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#373

Post by dcosson »

wyclif wrote: post #240
dcosson wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly terrible for newbies. If they try to use it, there's no pip included. So then they easy_install all their libraries which installs things into different places than most python devs will be used to. Or they easy_install pip first. But even still, everything is installing to system paths, so when they try to install things it fails with permission errors. They find a stack overflow post that says just "s…

you can always brew uninstall and reinstall later if you need a different version That is the wrong way to do it. Just install pyenv/pipenv to manage different Python versions. It's dead simple to maintain system Python, Python 2.7x, and Python3.7.3 that way.

Yes but I’ve never seen someone new to programming that bothered trying to figure out pyenv or similar. Even a lot of moderately experienced devs don’t bother with it. I guess it’s hard to realize the benefits of keeping environments organized until you’ve been burned by it.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#374

Post by zimpenfish »

teach wrote: post #371
pmilla1606 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this isn't exactly what you're talking about but I've found it invaluable: https://github.com/atomantic/dotfiles It's a script that installs all kinds of useful stuff and sets some - in my opinion - nice options. I just recently started a new job and I had a brand new Macbook Pro up and running (as in: ready to start working) in less than 30 minutes. A good tip is to fork it and modify it to your liking. At a…

So the ironic part is this script would no longer work after these deprecations because installing Homebrew requires a Ruby interpreter[0]. Obviously these things are fixable but a whole lot of people are going to have to do a lot of work to workaround having _no_ scripting languages installed by default on a fresh Mac. [0]: https://github.com/atomantic/dotfiles/blob/master/install.sh...

Looks like they're ahead of this problem already.

https://twitter.com/zbeekman/status/1136250914539483136

> Once Homebrew no longer has to support a macOS with a system ruby, we can even run with a considerably more up-to-date version, modulo concerns for supporting older linux(brew) OSes. We have a portable ruby that we can use to bootstrap things.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#375

Post by toyg »

Longhanks wrote: post #367
toyg wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> python2.7 is deprecated and no longer receives security updates Let's not go overboard - 2.7 will get security updates and patches until the end of December. > nearly nobody uses perl or ruby at this day. Well, except for homebrew of course, the Ruby-based package manager nearly "everybody" uses...

Homebrew (after installation) uses its own, bundled ruby runtime and will finish removing any dependency on system ruby long before Catalina is publicly available. https://twitter.com/MacHomebrew/status/1136249501252038662

I know, but this wasn't the case when it started. Besides, I believe the parent's point was that nobody uses ruby or perl for anything anymore, regardless of whether it's preinstalled or not. Which is obviously silly when looking at homebrew's internals.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#376

Post by Sean1708 »

wyclif wrote: post #323
willio58 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong way? I’ve used this method successfully for years.

Sure you can do that, but why would you want to install and re-install different versions of Python depending on what you needed at the moment? Pyenv manages all that nicely. You can have 2x and 3x side by side without having to reinstall and uninstall anything.

> You can have 2x and 3x side by side without having to reinstall and uninstall anything.

You can do that anyway, `python` is always Python 2 (except on Arch where `python` is Python 3 and the Python 2 executable is `python2`) and the Python 3 executable is called `python3`. `pyenv` is more for keeping multiple minor versions of the same major version (e.g. Python 3.6 and Python 3.7) around at the same time.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#377

Post by api »

I think people are reading more into this than is there. They're just not going to ship their own (outdated) versions of these anymore because they're not needed in the core OS. You can just "brew install" them, which most people who actually use them do anyway because the stock versions are too old.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#378

Post by [deleted] »

JohnBooty wrote: post #104
ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

They've got enough market clout now that people will port Ruby/Python/Perl to a non-Unix macOS, just as they port them to Microsoft Windows. Ruby on Windows is a nightmare. To be specific, Ruby itself (the core language and core libraries) are pretty good on Windows. Great choice for a scripting language, or whatever else you want to do. But libraries like ActiveRecord, Rails and their myriad dependencies are very ve…

[deleted]

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#379

Post by VirtualAirwaves »

ardy42 wrote: post #181
ken wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But macOS uses '/' as a directory separator already. They're not going to arbitrarily change trivia like that -- at least, not short of killing the concept of a filesystem altogether. (True, if anyone was going to do that, Apple would, but APFS is brand new. That's not going anywhere.) Apple isn't changing things just for the sake of change. They're removing 1970's-isms where they hold back the platform. Languages li…

> But macOS uses '/' as a directory separator already. IIRC, HFS actually uses a ':'.

Exactly! The MacOS zealots love to bash Windows (Or "Windoze" as they all call it), but in reality their own house stinks.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#380

Post by holtalanm »

Fnoord wrote: post #356
toyg wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every system Homebrew is installed on has Bash installed Ironically, they are also moving from bash to zsh for default shell. Again not an unsurmontable challenge (just make sure the bang is correct in your scripts, bash will likely still be around somewhere in macOS for the foreseeable future) but another little hurdle to mind.

Doesn't surprise me given they dislike GPLv3 and Zsh is MIT. Personally I try to use #!/bin/sh as much as possible, and Fish as my default shell.

upvoted for fish
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