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macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

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Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#321

Post by wyclif »

pieter_mj wrote: post #300
wyclif wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Python 2.7x is being EOL'd now . The Python that person will likely encounter in the very near future will be Python3.

per the link, macOS won't include any scripting languages by default in the future. So the bored user will be less likely to stumble upon an intresting programming language on their macs.

I don't know if that follows. I think it's likely that Apple will include a new installer upon setup that is essentially a one step 'click to install XCode Developer Tools and the following languages:' then has a list of options including Bash, Python, Ruby, Perl, &c. But all that is conjecture because we don't know what they're going to do yet.

You'd have to be very bored and unmotivated to not install a programming language if you had even the slightest motivation to program (IOW, not a normie consumer). I understand what you're saying, but I just don't see how this would be a huge barrier to entry.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#323

Post by wyclif »

willio58 wrote: post #266
wyclif wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can always brew uninstall and reinstall later if you need a different version That is the wrong way to do it. Just install pyenv/pipenv to manage different Python versions. It's dead simple to maintain system Python, Python 2.7x, and Python3.7.3 that way.

Wrong way? I’ve used this method successfully for years.

Sure you can do that, but why would you want to install and re-install different versions of Python depending on what you needed at the moment? Pyenv manages all that nicely. You can have 2x and 3x side by side without having to reinstall and uninstall anything.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#324

Post by alerighi »

Good thing, python2.7 is deprecated and no longer receives security updates, and a lot of Linux distributions (Arch and Fedora for example) plans to remove it from the main repositories at the end of this year, so having it installed doesn't make sense.

Even the perl and ruby version installed is old, and nearly nobody uses perl or ruby at this day. Maybe perl is still used by some programs and scripts, for example TexLive relies on perl, or ruby is used for brew. But you better installing more updated version yourself so removing it is not a big deal.

There is no meaning to keep old script interpreters installed, if you want to use them you probably want to install a more modern version, if you don't need them it's better to not have them.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#325

Post by AmericanChopper »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #301
AmericanChopper wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a new programmer want to start with a deprecated language?

Because they don't know it's a deprecated language. In fact they probably don't even know what "deprecated" means. It wasn't that long ago that Python 2.7 was the default on the Raspberry Pi. (That may still be true - I haven't checked recently.) There's a huge ecosystem of Python 2.7 tutorials, introductions, and sample code out there. Very little of it is prefaced with "Of course you should use Python 3 now."

I bet they know how versions work though, and that 3.7 is higher than 2.7. I just googled ‘Python tutorial’ and only one of the results on the first page was for python 2. The first result was ‘The Python Tutorial — Python 3.7.3 documentation’. If some non-programmer was going to start learning python, they’re most likely going to start with google. I can’t see them digging deeper into the results because they want to learn an older version of the language.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#326

Post by jillesvangurp »

saagarjha wrote: post #295
jillesvangurp wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called a personal computer for a reason. Laptop sharing is not a really a thing for professionals (or at least not that common). So, complete non issue for the vast majority of the target audience (i.e. developers and techies). Actually, not requiring root permissions is a feature and not a bug as it reduces the scope of what these tools can do at the OS level, which is a good thing for software you blindly inst…

> not requiring root permissions is a feature Not requiring root to install software to system directories is a security bug, not a feature. In a practical sense Homebrew elevates you to root and in the process messes up the permissions of a /usr/local, which, being on $PATH, opens users up to vulnerabilities.

Nonsense. You are using users in plural. Macs are not typically used as multi user machines. Certainly not by developers. And when they are, so what? Technically, the permissions are only changed for the user that installs homebrew, which requires root access to change the permission, and not for the other users. If that's a problem for you, configure it to install stuff elsewhere.

Also, /usr/local is completely empty on a fresh OSX installation and the whole point of homebrew is to have the stuff you install with it on the path. That's the whole point; you put stuff there that isn't part of the OS because you need it. There's nothing to mess up other than the stuff that you put there. If you don't want stuff there, don't put it there. The only vulnerability is the single user of the laptop being an idiot. At least they can be idiots without defaulting to root privileges, which probably is an improvement.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#327

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

jmkni wrote: post #306
JohnBooty wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've got enough market clout now that people will port Ruby/Python/Perl to a non-Unix macOS, just as they port them to Microsoft Windows. Ruby on Windows is a nightmare. To be specific, Ruby itself (the core language and core libraries) are pretty good on Windows. Great choice for a scripting language, or whatever else you want to do. But libraries like ActiveRecord, Rails and their myriad dependencies are very ve…

The Windows Subsystem for Linux fixes a lot of these problems, you can even point VS Code at Ubuntu now on Windows and avoid CMD entirely.

I was someone who installed the first beta of Windows that included this, just to try it out for Rails. It had LOTS of problems. I filed bugs. I kept trying over the next couple of versions, and finally gave up. I tried it again a few months ago, and, again, ran into a show-stopping problem of some sort, and gave up again. Are you saying that you use it "in anger" for serious development, and have no issues?

People complain about doing Rails on Windows, and, while there's definitely extra friction, and I hate Windows in general, I have really good luck with RubyInstaller. I used to have a hard time with ExecJS, but now I just install Node (on either Mac or Windows), and I'm usually off and running.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#328

Post by lapnitnelav »

x0x0 wrote: post #249
Waterluvian wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again the word "serious" is there telling me people are absolutely aloof to the kinds of new developers there are and what it's like to be a non programmer.

otoh, helping people start by just typing python is great! otoh, pointing people towards messing with system python... well, it's a trap. And they will get burned, and it will be a nightmare to straighten out.

Yeah you'd be better off having a proper clean install of Python + virtualenvwrapper as your starting point.

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#329

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

>> (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal system, but it is not too bad. The essential features of Unix seem to be good ones, and I think I can fill in what Unix lacks without spoiling them. And a system compatible with Unix would be convenient for many other people to adopt.")

I have a historical question and I wonder if anyone in this thread has the answer: why did RMS (and, presumably, by then his cycle) had to wait around for Linus Torwalds to write a kernel so they could have one for GNU? RMS in particular has a reputation as a legendary hacker. Was he not able to write his own kernel?

Re: macOS deprecating scripting language runtimes, including Python, Ruby, and Perl

#330

Post by agumonkey »

t0astbread wrote: post #313
ken wrote: post #76

Not surprising at all. It's become clear that what they've been doing with iOS all along is bootstrapping a new operating system. They started with Unix, not because Unix was optimal for what they wanted to do, but it's what they had and it worked well enough. Copland and Taligent and the rest failed because of Second-System Effect, which Apple was smart enough to avoid. (As RMS wrote in 1983, "Unix is not my ideal s…

Weird, I thought the Unix-likeness was a huge selling point of macOS ("the most user-friendly Unix on the market")

for the tech crowd that's for sure, but how much is it for their overall market ?
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