Live data from Hacker News

How does Apple privately find offline devices?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

21–30 of 184 posts

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#21
post #18

> The good news is that Apple claims that their system actually does provide strong privacy, and that it accomplishes this using clever cryptography. But that does nothing to protect your privacy against Apple. I already have to make sure that I disable WiFi and Bluetooth when I enter commercial establishments. Now I have to stop using Bluetooth whenever I leave my house?

It gets worse: if you turn off wifi/bluetooth in control center, it only disconnects, keeping the radio active.

1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#22
post #10

Okay, so this would make it insanely easy to stalk any iPhone user. 1. Get BLE tracking tags, and register them with Find My. 2. Covertly attach the BLE tracking tags to things your target owns (backpacks, cars, bikes, etc). 3. You constantly get updates on your tags locations via their iPhone and other iOS devices near the BLE tag(s). This gives you their approximate location and movement history, facilitated primar…

I have no idea how the FindMy BLE system works, but i strongly suspect that the cheaperst compatible "tag" you will find will be an iPhone. Might get a tad expensive to do this...

The potential of low cost tags is in the first paragraph, and an overview of how the system would work is in the second. My takeaway is that you will be able to use something far cheaper than an iPhone.

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#23
post #18

> The good news is that Apple claims that their system actually does provide strong privacy, and that it accomplishes this using clever cryptography. But that does nothing to protect your privacy against Apple. I already have to make sure that I disable WiFi and Bluetooth when I enter commercial establishments. Now I have to stop using Bluetooth whenever I leave my house?

Why do you do that? All Apple devices generate randomized MAC addresses for networks that they haven't connected to, so they shouldn't be able to track you. In addition, no other actors will be able to gain useful information from the bluetooth pings, they simply forward the encrypted data to Apple. All they can tell is that an Apple device exists nearby, but not who owns it or if they've seen the same device before.

If you're talking about apps on your phone tracking you by looking at nearby wifi networks, then Apple also fixes that in iOS 13.

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#24
post #9
post #4

Can we turn this off? please? I would like 100% passive bluetooth. (and wifi, and nfc)

How is that going to work? All communication that you initiate must be active. The only passive option would be broadcasts like TV or radio stations, but that’s not particularly useful if you want to view a specific website.

NFC is passive until powered by an external signal. It's very short range, but it does not require internal power. There could be a longer range version at some point.

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#25
post #9
post #4

Can we turn this off? please? I would like 100% passive bluetooth. (and wifi, and nfc)

How is that going to work? All communication that you initiate must be active. The only passive option would be broadcasts like TV or radio stations, but that’s not particularly useful if you want to view a specific website.

Could be more like a key RFID. Like, the system could have died, its antenna has been restructured to work like an RFID; so if there is a live device in the area, it can resonate and generate a slight signal.

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#26
post #23
post #18

> The good news is that Apple claims that their system actually does provide strong privacy, and that it accomplishes this using clever cryptography. But that does nothing to protect your privacy against Apple. I already have to make sure that I disable WiFi and Bluetooth when I enter commercial establishments. Now I have to stop using Bluetooth whenever I leave my house?

Why do you do that? All Apple devices generate randomized MAC addresses for networks that they haven't connected to, so they shouldn't be able to track you. In addition, no other actors will be able to gain useful information from the bluetooth pings, they simply forward the encrypted data to Apple. All they can tell is that an Apple device exists nearby, but not who owns it or if they've seen the same device before.…

Did not know this. I figured all those wifi connections I get near stoplights were slurping up mac addresses to track people. I wonder if it generates a mac address every single time or just upon first interaction with a wifi network it doesn't know about?

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#27

Total aside, but kinda relevant. I lost my phone like a dufus about a two weeks ago. Battery died and I had no idea where it was. When I pulled the my google location history, it was too coarse to tell me anything other than 'at your house'. However, I was able to pull the raw data from google and post process it by time stamp into a series of rasters that were fine enough for me to see that the phone was definitely…

This is interesting. By the raw data you mean from Google Takeout, or something else? Did you have to filter/smooth the data points?

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#28

The problem I see with this is that your phone always has to be broadcasting the BLE beacon, regardless of if it is lost or not. Otherwise it could randomly end up lost in a place with poor/no service... and would never be found For phones, how often is this really an issue? Sure, this is useful for the Tile type "dumb" devices... but if my phone has no cell or data service... it's probably because the battery is dea…

Complete speculation here, but I wouldn't be surprised if devices could keep broadcasting the ping after they're "dead". Tiles last for years without charging, so I bet if Apple can leave on only the bluetooth beacon after the battery drains past where it can power the rest of the phone then this would be doable.

Again complete speculation, I have zero clue if the current hardware is even capable of doing this.

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#29
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that going to work? All communication that you initiate must be active. The only passive option would be broadcasts like TV or radio stations, but that’s not particularly useful if you want to view a specific website.

NFC is passive until powered by an external signal. It's very short range, but it does not require internal power. There could be a longer range version at some point.

Maybe thats what this is. I'm well outside of the world of signal transduction, but a cell antenna/ wifi/ bluetooth antenna might be able to..

Re: How does Apple privately find offline devices?

#30
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that going to work? All communication that you initiate must be active. The only passive option would be broadcasts like TV or radio stations, but that’s not particularly useful if you want to view a specific website.

NFC is passive until powered by an external signal. It's very short range, but it does not require internal power. There could be a longer range version at some point.

Yes, but an NFC tag cannot initiate a connection on its own volition. And that’s very much a feature I like in WiFi: I can actively start downloading something. A WiFi card that only responds to an external ping is useless.
Post reply on HN