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Languages of India

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81–90 of 252 posts

Re: Languages of India

#81
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are almost identical. Standard Urdu taught in schools might be a bit hard to follow for Hindi speakers and vice-versa but on the street level, it really is almost exactly the same. As a native Urdu speaker, when I went to college in western India, people would often ask me if I knew Urdu and wanted to hear what it sounded like. They were always surprised when I revealed that I was speaking it all along as they a…

I've noticed that some words have different pronunciations. For instance, the word for "definitely" is pronounced zaroor in Urdu but in Hindi, it's pronounced jaroor.

Very true, in most Hindi speaking states people have a hard time pronouncing Z and often pronounce it as J even quite often even in English. Same thing with SH vs S.

That said, I've personally seen this as a common occurrence among people who didn't study any other languages other than Hindi or didn't study any at all.

Re: Languages of India

#82
post #12

India's right wing government under Modi is trying to impose Hindi on Indians who belong to different ethnicity and speak diverse set of languages. A sure shot recipe for balkanization of a young nation.

While it is true they are trying to do it, it's not anything new as Delhi has for decades tried to impose Hindi on all states and the southern ones don't take it well. That said, I don't think this can result in balkanization of India as generally India is way more united in-spite of issues like Delhi seen as having way too much control over the states (which is true in my opinion). Also, IMO, balkanization of the In…

That would surely help Islamize the 'Hindu' land.

Re: Languages of India

#83

India's definition of what is and what is not a language is highly politicized and highly idiosyncratic. Hindi and Urdu, by any reasonable linguistic definition are not separate languages. The official standards for both Hindi and Urdu, are both based on the form of the huge dialect continuum that spans North India and Pakistan, as spoken in Delhi. The only difference is that Urdu uses Persian and Arabic as inspirati…

>India's definition of what is and what is not a language is highly politicized and highly idiosyncratic. To some extent this is true of all languages, and it's a big part of nation building to draw the lines in whatever ways are convenient. Like, who decided Catalan, Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian are all separate languages but Swiss, Quebecois, Alsatian, West African, and French versions of French are all the sam…

> To some extent this is true of all languages...

Very true. An even clearer example is Catalan and Occitan, which are just the two most famous/prestigious/standardized poles in a still clearly-existing dialect continuum.

Or Scots and English: polls suggest that people's answers to the questions "is Scots a separate language, or a dialect of English?" and "should Scotland be an independent country?" are strongly correlated. On the surface, it seems that the former is a scientific question and the latter is a political one, so they shouldn't be correlated at all, but in reality they are both political questions.

Other examples include the various Chinese varieties (Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, Hokkien, etc. etc.), which are often considered one language for political reasons, Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin, and Bosnian, which are nearly identical but often considered different languages for political reasons (imagine if we considered US American to be a different language from Canadian), Romanian and Moldovan to which the same description applies, and so on. There are examples practically everywhere you look.

Re: Languages of India

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> impose Hindi on all states This is so blatantly false. I am from South and a Kannadiga and I can tell you with conviction that in my lifetime I have never had anyone impose Hindi on me. This frenzy of Hindi imposition exists only in the states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala (and a little in Karnataka but has since died down once people became more aware). I blame the excessive regionalism in part but major part of the bl…

> This is so blatantly false. I am from South and a Kannadiga and I can tell you with conviction that in my lifetime I have never had anyone impose Hindi on me. May be. I only think this because I've been so this by many people from South India and I'd rather take their word over the state's. Also, even if it is just a perception, it means such things were definitely attempted by the center. Perceptions don't just fo…

> That means a tightly integrated and mostly centrally controlled state cannot function either if there are multiple religions identities present in the country which by extension means that the state of J&K has no place in present day India.

It doesn't. That is the reason why you see so much bloodshed with one side trying to overpower the other. J&K is not homogenous. The Jammu part is majority Hindu and Kashmir part is majority Muslim dominated (it had a minority Hindu population too called Kashmiri Pandits but they were raped, murdered and eventually driven out by the majority. Read up on "Exodus of Kashmiri Pandits": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus). The Muslim dominated part wants to break away from the "Union" and form its own Country. Do you see what I have been hinting at? The religious division that was created when India was partitioned continues to plague Indian society even to this day. Now you want the Indian society to somehow forget and forgive all these issues and just join into a bigger Union with states that were created with diametrically opposite ideas? That is impossible! Why would Indian taxpayer want to carry the burden of states that have a hatred for Indians?

> After all, people of this region have so so much in common. Plus, in such a union each "nation" would retain it's identity while having extremely close ties to other "nations of the union" e.g, free trade, travel, etc.

I appreciate your desire for unification on a common ground and I wish for it too. But that is not a probability because of religious intolerance. You can bury your head in the sand and choose to look the other way but that is the reality. Until you have religions that believe that theirs is the "true path" and the rest will go to "Hell" there is no way we can achieve any sort of common ground. Reformation should happen first. Some sticking points that exist in each religious denomination should be discarded as being irrelevant for today's day and age. Now that is very much possible. Hinduism has undergone various reformations over the ages and continues to do so. Sati system was abolished. Caste system that discriminated has been upended by a Reservation system that uplifts the socially deprived. Sure it is not perfect yet but it shows positive intent. But these reformations cannot be a one-way street. If such similar reformations happen in all other religions then you would automatically have unification. If you are only looking at economic/political advantages then that is a poor solution that is bound to fail. Unification should only be on mutual-respect for culture, tradition, religion, creed etc. Things that have real social value. Not money or politics. The former will cement the Union, the latter (example: EU) is a weak foundation that will eventually crumble.

Re: Languages of India

#85
post #7

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

Thats because the Class 1 CBSE books said that Hindi is our national language, Peacock is the national bird, Tiger the national animal and Hockey the national sport. :D

That's not entirely correct. Hindi is the official language of Republic of India. That is why 14 September is celebrated as Hindi Divas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_Divas

Re: Languages of India

#86
post #7

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India

I am not Indian, so please correct my outsider's perspective if it is wrong, but from what I have seen, this is mainly believed by North Indians, and often deeply resented by South Indians, who are more likely to view English as a common, neutral, pan-Indian lingua franca, and Hindi as too North-centric to be appropriate for that role.

Re: Languages of India

#87
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.

I knew or could guess about influences from the other three, but didn't really know about influences from Portuguese - interesting. Got any examples? Only one I can think of right now is kaju in Hindi for cashew, which I think may be from Portuguese because I think I've read the Portuguese brought the cashew tree to India [1]. Okay, pao or pav [2] for a particular kind of bread in Mumbai and Maharashtra may be anothe…

Another example is "vindaloo", from "vinho d'alho" ('garlic wine').

Over in Japan, "tempura" is from a Latin reference to the holiday of Lent, as used by Portuguese people in Japan. (At that time the Catholic Portuguese would eat fried fish or fried vegetables.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempura#Etymology

(edit: it seems that the original reference is to four different seasons of religious fasts, not just to the Lenten fast)

Re: Languages of India

#88
post #7

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

The original plan was, of course, to phase out English as a national language. This never happened, I suppose partially because while 'Hindustani' (as was) made sense as a symbol of unity during the time leading up to Independence, afterwards, especially as 'Hindi', it was seen more as a regional language (even if the region involved is large) and so not necessarily more deserving of official nation-level status than…

> [English's] own (post-colonial) baggage

What are those? It is just a language people speak.

Re: Languages of India

#89
post #77
post #7

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

>in heavily accented English This reminded me of Mike Tyson - https://youtu.be/3QC-H9ozuSQ?t=156

That's amusing. It does however take some time to get used another person's accent. I sure had difficulty in the beginning with the English accent of my Scottish coworker (not to mention American/Canadian accent itself when I was a new immigrant).

Re: Languages of India

#90
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. It's amazing how most Americans believe that English is the national language of the US, when where's no such thing as a national language in the US.

Concluding that English is the national language of the US is totally reasonable. Most government documents are in English. The Constitution is in English. English is the language overwhelmingly taught in schools, used in the workplace, and is the most spoken language in the country by far. Saying that English isn't the official language in the US is really just highlighting the fact that the Federal government hasn'…

English is clearly dominant, but official linguistic pluralism does exist in the US in some ways. For example:

* Large parts of the US provide ballots and other voting materials in Spanish (or Vietnamese, or Chinese, or various Native American languages, ...).

* Courts in the US will go to pretty extreme lengths to find interpreters for criminal defendants who can't understand English, even if their native language is somewhat obscure.

* There were public schools teaching primarily in Spanish until at least the early 2000s in Arizona; not sure if they still exist in other places. There are definitely still private schools teaching in non-English languages in some parts of the country, particularly Yiddish.

Anyway, making explicit any link between citizenship on the one hand and language or culture on the other is considered a somewhat solidly right-wing belief in the US (and I would expect in other countries that began their history as settler colonies, like Canada or Australia), whereas it would seem like much more of a centrist consensus in even some overall more progressive-leaning societies (from Article 2 of the French Constitution: "The language of the Republic is French". I would be shocked if France lets you vote in Arabic or teach public school classes in Lingala).

Because it's perceived as solidly right wing, and the other side of the political spectrum will fight it tooth and nail, it's hard for me to imagine the US declaring English as a federal official language in the foreseeable future.

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