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YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

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Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#551

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Getting banned from YouTube is not a violation of individual rights. Forcing a company to host videos for free sounds like a violation of individual rights though.

They aren't hosting the videos for free - they're displaying them alongside advertisements to make revenue off those videos. Also, the rights given an individual are distinct from the rights given to a company, and IMO are distinct from the rights a company deserves (i.e. a company has no inherent right to exist).

By "free" I mean "at no cost to the user". If I wanted to host my videos on AWS or bare metal I'd have to pay for the privilege.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#552
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were völkisch (as in "Germans are the best, we need that space for us"), not white supremacist (since Poles, Russians, European Jews etc are white as well). Hi. If you downvote factual statements, please leave a comment. It's annoying if you're using downvotes and flags as "I don't like that somebody says this". Write an argument, don't abuse moderation tools.

> not white supremacist (since Poles, Russians, European Jews etc are white as well). Half the bloody point of white supremacy is that the supremacist is the one who chooses who is white enough to be in the in-group, and who is not. The definition of white changes, based on who the supremacist wants to kill, displace, or enslave.

> Half the bloody point of white supremacy is that the supremacist is the one who chooses who is white enough to be in the in-group, and who is not.

Meh, removing any value from descriptive terms doesn't help.

> The definition of white changes, based on who the supremacist wants to kill, displace, or enslave.

Or it's just not white supremacy, which it never was with the Nazis.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#553
post #473

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> ...but with alternative-media sites rising... That should be happening, but isn't - not to the degree it naturally would. Debanking. Payment processors have been very busy weeding out potential competitors to the big names in SV. I almost want to laugh at the fact that the early cryptocurrency proponents experienced the exact same treatment while building the very thing that would protect those presently being targ…

Yes this is absolutely true. But once the cryptocurrencies gain a true grip, along with alternative payment processors, we will really begin to see a true divergence. In some sense, such particulars are the bedrock of the second internet.

Maybe. I have no doubt that cryptocurrency use will be common, primarily because it will be necessary in a world dominated by software agents that can't rely on meatspace money, but I'm starting to wonder about likelihood of the original political goal. Wallstreet gave up fighting it after a couple of years, and is presently positioned as the guy selling the shovels in the gold rush, but there is an increasing amount of direct interaction. It seems like they think they'll be able to maintain the present segmented status - which is obviously not going to work. So I expect they'll go full hands on mode once it is obvious that there is no going back. What will that look like? Well every couple of years, since the very beginning, some idiot has tried to start a colored-coin/tainted-coin service - to, you know, think of the children... making the currency worthless after being tainted by activities deemed unacceptable (ransomware, exchange hacks, etc). No matter how many times it is explained that this eliminates the property of fungibility, which is what makes a currency a currency, these people keep popping up. Well wallstreet might be able to make it happen, if they make the move before there is more widespread global adoption.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#554

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>That would satisfy the common carrier aspect as you could simply email the links out to your existing audience. Yes, but the analogy with traditional delivery services breaks down because people don't ask the delivery service to find new content for them. Preferring certain people's videos in search and recommendations based upon their political content is a deliberate reduction in the ability of the penalized peopl…

Then I think there's a core distinction between hosting content and as you put it "finding new content for them". Hosting may fall under some common carrier scenario, but recommendations/search fall under curation and curation is very much back in the realm of TV/newspapers where the proprieter exercises control. I think that does entitle them to shape the political conversation, although I could see some argument fo…

>Then I think there's a core distinction between hosting content and as you put it "finding new content for them".

Yes of course those two things are different, but YouTube does both of them and both of them are necessary for meaningful participation in the public political debate.

>but recommendations/search fall under curation and curation is very much back in the realm of TV/newspapers where the proprieter exercises control.

When users search somewhere like YouTube or Google, or look at their recommendations, they are typically not expecting to get content ranked by how well it falls in line with the proprietor's political outlook. They're trying to get content that matches what they searched for, or in the case of recommendations looking for content the service thinks they might be interested in, not content that the proprietor thinks they should be seeing to further their own political goals. Search, and to an extent recommendations, fall under discovery. People don't go to YouTube or Google or Facebook or Twitter to see content curated by those companies. If they want curated content, they go to a specific channel or page or account, or to a website like the NYT.

>I think that does entitle them to shape the political conversation, although I could see some argument for a great deal of transparency in exactly what they're doing in that regard.

I'm curious if you would you say that if they were hiding content you agree with and promoting content you disagree with, or what you would say if there was an election coming up and they were hiding content in favor of your preferred candidate and pushing content in favor of the opponent.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#555

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>On the other hand, a privately owned shopping mall is legally a "public square" in a number of states Even then, it does not mean that those malls should allow anyone to sell wares. What it means it allows people to visit without discrimination on basis of legally protected classes like gender and race. YouTube banning a channel does not ban individual from watching videos, it prevents them from uploading videos whi…

> What it means it allows people to visit without discrimination on basis of legally protected classes like gender and race No, the "public square" designation specifically allows people to do things like come to the mall and set up political protests and whatnot. It's not about _access_ to the mall; it's about speech protections. Is uploading videos more akin to setting up a store at the mall, or more akin to standi…

Not just between demonetization (totally fine with me) and removal (don't really like it). Promotion is also a tricky one, since those algorithms are fully under Google's control and thus responsibility for its results. But do you still participate in this "public square" if only your followers will find your message? But Google will have to decide what videos are shown anyhow...

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#556

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"They worked so hard to research and create a 2000 word article that accurately reflects the world" I find this laughable. Many recent articles I've seen are designed to get clicks and have nothing to do with good journalism or research beyond what someone can get from behind a keyboard.

Okay: they worked so hard to contrive a 2000 word sequence to get clicks using machine learning and whatnot - and then let fReEtHiNkErChAd and 2020BloodInTheStreets chime in at the end.

Because fReEtHiNkErChAd and 2020BloodInTheStreets will each piss some readers off and please others, polarizing the topic and inviting others to participate, thus increasing pageviews and ad exposure. It worked well for a while, but with the growth of Twitter mobs it eventually backfired.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube is the most popular website on the internet for regular (i.e. non-rich) people to participate in the public political debate by posting/watching videos. This means banning regular people from it substantially reduces their ability to meaningfully participate in the public political debate. When people can't peacefully advocate for their interests, they do so violently. We don't want real world violence, so it…

YouTube is just not that important. It's not some type of important political fixture, it's pretty universally regarded as a cesspool with regard to political discussion and most of the content is non-political anyway.

What exactly do you mean by "not that important"? Is it your position that if, say, YouTube took down all content that was in favor of Democrats, and pushed content that was in favor of Republicans to the front page, and put it all over recommendations, that there would be no impact to elections?

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#558

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

Generally, true statements are not profound or original, but sometimes still need to be repeated when people assert the opposite. “The world is round” is neither an original or profound statement and yet people still need to say it periodically.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#559

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> If they don't want the government forcing them to host content and uphold free speech then they have to take responsibility for the content in the eyes of the law. Currently they're having it both ways, free to ban ideas they don't like and control the content they deliver without being responsible for libel/slander. It sounds like you're saying that they either have to host absolutely any video anyone uploads, or…

That isn't what I said nor what I meant. They are overstepping on the censorship front by continually constricting their "acceptable" guidelines based off of their very fluid internal rules. "In 2018 alone, we made more than 30 policy updates. One of the most complex and constantly evolving areas we deal with is hate speech" They even state it as a point of pride - they continually shift the lines on what is "hate sp…

> I'm saying that this behavior shouldn't be acceptable for a company that has such a strong grip on societal discourse

YouTube doesn't have "a strong grip on societal discourse", it's a glorified video sharing site that's widely regarded as a cesspool in terms of discourse.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#560
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are banned from the places where a substantial portion of the public political debate occurs, e.g. YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter, their ability to participate in the public political debate is substantially reduced. People advocate for their interests peacefully by participating in the public political debate. If their ability to participate in the public political debate is substantially reduced, then the…

You are making an assumption which contradicts your conclusion. If we are assuming that (1) YouTube is effectively the public square and that (2) people will advocate for their interest peacefully, then you cannot conclude that people will forego self-moderation of content deemed extreme and immediately turn to violence. If your YouTube video gets taken down, you can re-upload something that is better reasoned and le…

>If we are assuming that (1) YouTube is effectively the public square and that (2) people will advocate for their interest peacefully, then you cannot conclude that people will forego self-moderation of content deemed extreme and immediately turn to violence.

Could you word this another way? I do not understand what you're saying.

>then you message is inherently violent

Can you please be specific and give an example of a political ideology that is inherently violent, and also one that is not inherently violent, other than pure pacifism?

>Either way, I'd still rather have extremists arming themselves than spending their lives convincing others to take up violence on their behalf.

Because you are worried that people are going to buy what they're selling? Why are you worried about that, specifically?

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