YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#381

Post by sintaxi » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

adwi wrote: post #133

Even as lifelong card-carrying ACLU supporter I don’t see why they don’t just take down anything they damn well please. They’re a private company and are entitled to have a curatorial viewpoint—and for my particular beliefs culling white suprematists and borderline pedophilic content is a Good Thing. You’re entitled to say whatever you want in this country, but I’m not obligated to broadcast it for you.

> I don’t see why they don’t just take down anything they damn well please.

Its because Youtube would rather be legally categorized as a service rather than as a publisher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicati...

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#382

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #107

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

I wish all internet comment sections be removed. If you have something to say, promote your own website. Yelp is the worst.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#383

Post by TomMckenny » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

chrisjc wrote: post #118

vowelless wrote: post #91

Good. Online radicalism is a thing. To all the people here who are decrying this as “censorship”, remember that during the early 2010s, Islamic radicals were getting radicalized on YouTube by pretty benign sermons (Ex: Awlaki and his “tour of Paradise” lectures that inspired Boston 2013, fort hood and a bunch of other international attacks). YouTube removed all that out and I think Muslims getting radicalized on YouT…

> White supremacy is a much bigger deal with a worse tail risk than Islamic extremism. Wait... you're saying that white supremacy is worse than islamic extremism? Is you opinion perhaps a manifestation of your perspective? I'm sure there are some people in Syria, Afghanistan, etc... that would disagree with you. BTW, I'm not saying one is worse than the other, just that they are both bad, both a problem, and both sho…

Worse is impossible to determine.

But do be aware that white supremacist have committed more acts of violence in the US than Muslim extremist. And this not counting lynching which is a systematic form of terrorism that lasted more than a century.

The same people who cheer blocking Al Qaeda now claim that blocking neo-nazis is suppressing conservative views, so right-wing extremism has been and is far more tolerated and prevalent than other violent extremism.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#384

Post by luckylion » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #96

luckylion wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a while ago, right? From what I remember, the "usual suspects" (aka libertarians, liberalists etc) weren't that silent, they pointed out the irony that the try to control platforming backfired, but did oppose the bans. Might be something newer, of course, in which case I didn't see it and can't comment on it.

It's an ongoing thing, and not just on YouTube. I see people popping on to Mastodon every day because they said, on their own timeline to people following them, that (for example) "transphobes can fall off a cliff." Banned for threats. Sometimes permanently. Most big instances have the :guillotine: and :trebuchet: emoji because of one such case. This is way more than the few cases that float up into your attention. I…

That's the problem with policies like this: they might apply them to everyone. If a feminist tweets "men are scum", they are going to get in trouble. If some white supremacist wrote "anti-whites can fall off a cliff", I suppose many would support removing/banning that.

You won't get large companies to officially make value calls and say "no, it's okay if this user says that because they are part of a special group", they will be too vulnerable to public/media/political pressure, especially in a culture that is generally pro free speech.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#385

Post by dageshi » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #318

dageshi wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a privately owned museum a "public square"? Or a sports stadium owned by a private company? Or a Cinema? Or a threatre? No, neither is youtube. It's a place the public visit not a piece of public infrastructure. Repeating "public square" over and over again does not make it so.

Do any of those places host a substantial portion of the public political debate? If any of those places banned people, would that significantly reduce the ability of those people to meaningfully participated in the public political debate?

Probably not, but then I don't think it's a like to like comparison, youtube is more of a broadcast system than anything, it's closer to TV or Newspapers were pre youtube and nobody has the automatic right to TV airtime or to be printed in a newspaper.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#386

Post by indigochill » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #290

ravenstine wrote: post #107

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

I was a huge proponent of this in the early days of the web and was leading the crusade for reader engagement, championing the idea of anonymous commentary and a pure marketplace of ideas. Well, it turns out I had an over-optimistic view of people.

Maybe so, but I still think this can work. I think the problem is that we've moved away from communities focused around a particular topic to just throwing everyone into a pool and crossing our fingers.

If a community has a topic and the majority of users are interested in discussing that topic, then when someone veers off-topic to rant about their favorite conspiracy theory, you don't have to be a judge of the validity of his viewpoint. You just gently point out that's not what people are there to talk about and that they're welcome to discuss said conspiracy theory over on yonder conspiracy theory aficionado forum (and ban them if they continue trying to detract from the conversation).

This then removes moderators as judges of what is Right and True (the problem facing moderators on Facebook/YouTube/other anything-goes platforms) and positions them in the much more manageable role of, well, moderating a conversation.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#387

Post by drilldrive » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

We talk all the time about the two internets, one of China and one of the rest of the world. But more and more we are seeing a new division arising within America itself of two internets. I can't say how this will play out long-term, but with alternative-media sites rising we may well see two broad forces developing.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#388

Post by luckylion » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #295

vinceguidry wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White supremacy can be reasonably credited for the Holocaust, but not for the war itself. The usual intervention after a major war was for a few hundred years to carve up the major belligerent into smaller states. This happened fairly regularly throughout the early modern period but curiously stopped being a thing after the Napoleonic wars. I suspect this is because carving France back up into kingdoms at that point…

> but not for the war itself. Have you never heard of Lebensraum? Generalplan Ost?

Those were völkisch (as in "Germans are the best, we need that space for us"), not white supremacist (since Poles, Russians, European Jews etc are white as well).

Hi. If you downvote factual statements, please leave a comment. It's annoying if you're using downvotes and flags as "I don't like that somebody says this". Write an argument, don't abuse moderation tools.

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#389

Post by core-questions » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

dageshi wrote: post #309

ravenstine wrote: post #107

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

Is a privately owned museum a "public square"? Or a sports stadium owned by a private company? Or a Cinema? Or a threatre? No, neither is youtube. It's a place the public visit not a piece of public infrastructure. Repeating "public square" over and over again does not make it so.

Youtube runs on the back of publicly-funded infrastructure and, as a natural monopoly in the space, it has a position of privilege that needs to be regulated.

We need an Internet Bill of Rights to ensure free speech on any platform of this scale. Yes, that means speech you don't like; may I suggest not watching it?

Re: YouTube to Remove Thousands of Videos Pushing Extreme Views

#390

Post by convivialdingo » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

CodiePetersen wrote: post #317

ravenstine wrote: post #107

I'm starting to think that comment sections on news sites are a really bad idea. At first I thought NPR and the like were cowards for removing theirs. It's bad enough that NYT can be pretty biased on its own, but the comment sections are always full of low-tier thinking that just push whatever narrative is currently in the Overton window. What I find distressing is how people remark that a telecom and advertising gia…

Although any hateful speech is terrible of course, I think censoring like this is a bad idea. Like other conversations about freedom of speech on HN it will eventually lead to talking about banning non hateful but extreme ideas like flat earth and anti vax. While ridiculous as they are, I think it would be equally ridiculous to ban them. What's the line you draw when you decide what gets to be promoted. Maybe certain…

Agreed. The only comment I would add is that, unlike newspapers, these companies receive a broad immunity through the laws so that they can operate without fear of legal retribution. Even though they operate as private companies, I would argue that they still have a mandate to the public good as part of their operations.